| Subject: | RE: [socialcredit] Rent for everyone | | Date: | Thursday, March 9, 2006 12:59:06 (-0800) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 3572 (written by W. McGunnigle) |
Hi Bill (McGunnigle),
I believe there is only one proper purpose of any tax~ to pay for public
services best provided through 'government'. As Douglas noted, as long
as private enterprise and public services co-exist, the means of
transfer of privately produced goods and services to public account must
be by a form of taxation. To the extent they are necessary, a
'flat-rate' income tax, and/or a sales tax were the ones he preferred.
The latterto be similar to our GST, or a VAT, if needed.
What he specifically warned against were taxes on any kind of
'property'. Be they 'capital levies', 'inheritance' or 'death-duty'
taxes, or 'land' taxes. These all concentrate control over private
property into the hands of those who can only ultimately provide the
'money' to pay them ~ the financial, or 'banking' sector.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: W. McGunnigle [mailto:wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz]
Sent: March 7, 2006 3:25 AM
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Rent for everyone
Hi Everyone
I have observed the various comments on the topic about
land ownership. If land ownership or custodianship attracts a premium in
the
form of tax. Can someone tell me what is the purpose of the tax? I have
heard a staggering number of "economists" extolling the necessities of
taxation, but none of them give me the same answer. Can it be that they
don't understand their own discipline? I can always answer my science
queries with logical rational argument easily understood by any
intelligent
lay-person why can't they do the same?
any comments?
Bill McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Rent for everyone
> Howdy Jeffery,
>
> Your dividend is based on a community pooling of a tax. The only
difference
> between this and the basic wage is that the central bureaucracy is not
> included in the loop and is replaced by a local beaucracy.
>
> It also smacks a little of the communist philosophy in that the
natural
> world belongs to everyone and so any given piece of land will incur a
> penalty on the occupant for excluding the rest of the owners use of
the
> same.
>
> Obviously prime commercial and industrial real estate will pay the
highest
> penalty and they being good business people will extract it from those
who
> will get it back in the dividend which is really localising the
present
> system of govt taking with one hand and giving back with the other.
So if
> the King or Baron of yester-age had to pay a community tax for his
lands
we
> know where the tax money would come from.
>
> Now how do you suppose you can persuade Social Crediters to throw the
baby
> ( we produced) out and keep the bath water ( we didnt produce) since
we
> propose a dividend of new debt free money not from tax, repesenting
common
> ownership ( property of the type that cant be occupied) in the ever
> enhancing social development we as society produced collectively, of
all
> kinds over time, rather than the natural world which we didnt produce?
Your
> proposal doesnt compete.
>
> You recognise the hierarchical and democracy issues of the past but
dont
> recognise common ownership represented in the S.C. dividend which is
usurped
> by both govt and private hierarchies of today and thus violates a very
> crucial aspect of practical every day democracy when people would vote
and
> enjoy freedom by their wallets.
>
> The current system is still based on a privileged hierarchy who
dominate
> property, the advantage of legal sanction associated with it and
access
to
> credit. The state enjoys its share in this game. The system is
unjust
> because it is upside down to what it should be. Your proposal doesnt
turn
> this the right side up as the advantage of property and the associated
legal
> power would remain dominant.
> Peter H
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeffery Smith" <jjs@geonomics.org>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 10:53 AM
> Subject: [socialcredit] Rent for everyone
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 2006, at 6:00 PM, Joe Thomson wrote:
> >>
> >> (Jeff Smith:-) (land) Wasn't exactly scare before then, just
hoarded.
> >>>>
> >> (Joe comments:-) Yes, and look at HOW it was hoarded. By the
> >> imposition
> >> of a 'tax' on the LAND ITSELF
> >>>
> >> (Jeff Smith replies:-) Please cite a time and place.
> >>
> >> (Joe responds:-) The various land 'clearances' in parts of the
British
> >> Isles around the dawn of the Industrial Revolution, for one.
> >
> > First, you said a tax resulted in hoarding. Yet the example involves
no
> > tax, merely a governmental proclamation. A tax, historically
indicated
by
> > the experiences of places from California to Taiwan, has just the
opposite
> > result - breaking up latifundia.
> >
> >> What was done, was done by a form of 'tax' on land itself.
> >
> > Neither a tax or a "tax" but a simple take-over.
> >
> >> (Joe responds:-) Did the peasantry of ancient Egypt 'hoard' land
before
> >> the time of Joseph? I don't think so.
> >
> > Think about, instead, what anthropologists and historians tell us.
That
> > is, the local leaders, such as chiefs and priests, each year
parceled
out
> > sites to families, initially rotating the best sites among all the
> > families.
> >
> >> Each used what he could use.
> >
> > Actually, authorities write that each family - not individual - used
what
> > was assigned.
> >
> >> But the tax imposed on them by Joseph certainly had the ultimate
effect
> >> of hoarding 'their' land right into the hands of he who operated
''in
the
> >> name of" Pharaoh. Maybe you think that was a 'good' thing?
> >
> > Since you do such a poor job of guessing what people think, why not
give
> > it up?
> >
> >> (Jeff continues:-) The introduction of a tax on land value has
always
> >> broken up latifundia.
> >>
> >> (Joe responds:-) I disagree. It often concentrates it further. Go
back
> >> to 'feudal' England after the Norman conquest of 1066. Starting
with
> >> William the Conqueror's 'Domesday Book', we began to see a 'tax'
imposed
> >> on land value. For was it not King John's attempt to further 'tax'
the
> >> Baron's lands on threat of dispossession that led to their mass
revolt,
> >> and the Magna Carta? The first instance of a long struggle against
> >> arbitrary 'taxation'.
> >
> > A tax set arbitrarily is not a tax set by land value. The former is
by
> > political fiat, the latter by the market. A tax set that collects
the
> > annual value of a location and no more is fair and affordable; a tax
that
> > goes over that is unfair, unaffordable, and does concentrate land
into
the
> > hands of those passing the laws. So there are separate issues. One,
who
> > deserves the value of land? (Ans: the society creating the land's
value).
> > Two, how much should the owner(s) pay their neighbors (ans: the
annual
> > value, no more). Three, who should administer the collection of land
dues?
> > (Ans: not a lord or any one high up in a hierarchy but a local
democracy).
> >
> >> 'ownership' over land
> >
> > "Own" and "owe" and "ought" used to be one word.
> >
> >> But a 'tax' on it, threatening dispossession if not paid, is still
a
> >> tyranny.
> >
> > Depends on the tax, whether it's fair or not. Another tyranny, far
more
> > common today, is to hoard the socially-generated value.
> >
> >> And what some of the 'Georgists' propose looks to me like something
that
> >> could easily evolve into that ultimate tyranny.
> >
> > Please look again. In the Middle Ages when the only tax levied was
one
on
> > land (mainly) and government was exceedingly hierarchical, of course
you
> > sometimes had abuse in assessing a site's value, in exempting the
rich,
> > etc. The problem was not trying to recover compensation for
excluding
all
> > others from a parcel of nature, the problem was hierarchy and zero
> > democracy. Don't toss the baby with the bathwater. Since then, every
> > introduction of a tax on land value has created more freedom and
> > democracy, not less, as you can see at our website.
> >
> >> now you're going to vest title
> >
> > You're far too comfortable with distortion. attributing to others
your
own
> > fears. Please work on that.
> >
> >> to ALL real property
> >
> > You know where "real" comes from - "royal".
> >
> >> in an abstraction called ''the STATE'', or "the GOVERNMENT', or
"the
> >> PUBLIC".
> >
> > False, again. Paying land dues does not change how much one pays but
to
> > whom, from a seller or lender to one's neighbors - land dues into
the
> > common kitty, rent dividends back.
> >
> >> If one can't be totally as 'secure' as possible on one's 'OWN' land
> >
> > OWED land
> >
> >> , held under the form of title that is most 'common' (known), and
> >> commonly desired by most of us~ as individual OWNERS
> >
> > OWERS
> >
> >> of individual properties with tenancy-for-life and statutory
rights of
> >> disposition to our heirs, just where can we be secure?
> >
> > In a geonomy. Even without the rent dividend (which you constantly
> > overlook), every place that has a land tax today (e.g., Australia)
has
> > higher owner occupancy than places that have little or no tax on
land
> > (e.g., Latin America) or buildings (which is a bad tax, but common
stand
> > in).
> >
> > SMITH, Jeffery J., President, Forum on Geonomics
> > 7536 SE Milwaukie Av, Portland Oregon 97202 USA
> > 503/232-1337; jjs@geonomics.org; www.geonomics.org
> > Share Earth's worth to prosper and conserve.
> >
> >
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at
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> >
>
>
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> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
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