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I think we just antagonise the churches by trying to prove, or in their eyes, pretend, that they have a duty to support our particular way of thinking.

And I wouldn't want to "put off" other groups, such as particularly the Muslims, whose financial ideas are close to ours. But who have a very low opinion of Christianity, particularly when a man who claims to be a devout believer has been responsible for the slaughter of tens of thousands of their civilians. After first antagonising them by using the term "crusade".

Let's stick to reason, and let those who are interested form their own appreciation.

Regards. John R.

From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:22:43 +1300

John R said: I think this is an unfortuate side.

Binding back to reality cannot ever be unfortunate. Its a ship without a rudder if you dont.

Secondly I answered a question about the relationship between Social Credit and Christianity.

I think the issue that prompted that comment is the old one that people repeated-

'one shouldnt argue about religion'

But that was also accompanied by the same not to argue about politics. Perhaps we shouldnt argue about money and economics either because people do get offended from time to time as well.

Anyone who has read Douglas knows he doesnt define Christianity in terms of the church doctrines and scripture. He appeals to the broader principles that have been involved in the build up of the law and constitutionalism to which economics and politics ( business of the state ) are inter-related. All this should have been in preserved in our education system. The Fabians and others have been very successfulI at rooting this out and replacing it with their own dumbing down conditioning.

I would suggest that the two main reasons people who dont understand Social Credit or never accept it premises and conclusion even if they do prefer another way is because they dont appreciate the philosophy and secondly they seperate economics out from the other aspects they are directly related to while Social Credit doesnt. In effect they separate it out from its true context and thus there is a block to full reality.

All policy derives from a philosophy. If any people ignore/lose one they will be taken over by those who do and that is the situation of the world right now. We are not just fighting arithmatic we are fighting a philosophy. The first principle regards engaging an enemy is the know the enemy.

If society wants Social Credit policy it will have to first appreciate the philosophy that will produce and sustain it. So lets not talk about it? Is this why people wont talk about it?

Peter H

----- Original Message -----

From: John G Rawson

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort

I think this is a rather unfortunate aside.

I think that, because of my Christian beliefs, therefore I look for the most moral approach to economics and politics, which, by luck, I found as Social Credit. Had I not been aware of it, probably I would have been taken in by the simple minded "Poor are poor because the rich are rich" approach of Socialism, which immediately heads off the need to think further anyway.

But without knowing too much about Islam, I suspect true believers in that field might well accept it also. Perhaps more readily than us.

But if we are going to link SC with Christianity, then it is necessary to define the latter. The teachings of Christ or the vastly different approach of some established churches? (Including mine at times.) The work of Mother Teresa, or the uncouth Crusaders rampaging through the Middle East destroying anything civilised they found? The Salvation Army or the Spanish Inquisition? (To avoid offence, I leave out modern examples.)

I suggest we treat SC on its own merits logically and morally, so that those with fixed moral anchors such as Christianity, Islam and other beliefs including pure love of humanity can see how well it fits their approach. To me it most certainly fits closely with the teachings of Christ.

But lets take a caution. So does pure Communism. But Communism has never been applied in practice without becoming uttterly corrupted, and I believe its impractical approach demands this to happen. "The people" had become "The loud and brutal muscle boys".

Let's try to iron out the factual aspects of SC and practical means of implementing it, something that has never been done in full detail, so that if it ever comes to be tried it has not then also been utterly corrupted in the process.

Regards.   John R.

From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:37:53 +1300

Howdy Keith,

My complements on not leaving this on a negative note.

I assumed that you would have some idea of a relationship between Social Credit and Christianity although it doesnt feature much on this forum. So I stand corrected on that.

There was an excellent post by Phillip Butler a few months ago on Social Credit being practical Christianity but you may not have seen it and then of course it may have produced a number of questions that may need answering first for some to be able to appreciate it.

You mentioned the comment/ question by Bill Ryan last year re english being my first or second language. I wasnt convinced it had anything to do with discussion as no one on any forum outside of this one has put such an issue as though it was of any significance. Our supposed conflict of how we view things for example is more an issue regards any difficulty in understanding rather than how perfect ones language is. My native language is English. It was always my poorest subject at school because outside of spelling and some basic grammar there was no rhyme or reason or character ever taught that gave it anything to learn about so I did a lot better at maths. Today it is a widespread problem at universities in my country. Perhaps being the normal lanuage it was taken for granted and became a lazy zone for teachers.

Authority of the scriptures is the scriptures themselves as they contain a common language/ use of terms and provide the keys to fathoming them. There are referrences within that talk about studying and proving and searching indicating it isnt a an easy come easy lost matter however the admonition to seek and you will find holds true. Naturally a casual interest wont get the same returns as an industrious student. Then of course there is the original words of Hebrew, Arabic and Greek in concordances that given a more accurate interpretation which often corrects popular teaching.

Religion, philosophy, science all have schools of thought. The point I made was that it doesnt matter how popular any of these schools of though are at any time the actual real truth remains independant although discovered to any degree. For example the earth didnt turn flat because everyone believed it was.

I am glad I now understand that you have been trying to get your head around Douglas' concepts and that you have been mystified sometimes by the supposed relationship between Social Credit and Christianity because you having been around for so long and seeming very familiar with much of what is discussed one easily thinks you understood a lot more than you actually do. But it is typical that Social Crediters prefer to talk about economics rather than the philosophy that is its policy foundation.

I suggest you do a bit of reading from the man himself and those who have a good grasp because much of the dispute between Social Crediters and others of some other school of thought are really over the philosophy behind the policy, thus it is easy for those who differ to think we are narrow and inflexible etc.

It also needs to be pointed out that people who claim or talk as Social Crediters may not in fact embrace the whole conception and those who are only interested in finance and economics may be a majority. You will have picked up from time to time responses by those who intimate that others are not really Social Crediters like they are.

I recommend you to the alor.org library ( Australian League of Rights) where you will find such works by Douglas as "Nature of Democarcy", "The Approach To Reality", "The Policy of a Philosophy"and "Realistic Constitutionalism" on line. All short booklets. The article "Social Credit is as old as Man" would be a good start.

Others like "Social Credit and Christian Philosophy", "Essential Christian Heritage" by Eric Butler obviously link the two as well as link into history and constitutionalism. This is the background of the Christian Philosophy in relation to the English or British culture and Social Credit, the heritage of the English speaking Protestant peoples in general. The struggle over finance is not unrealated to that over philosophy, culture and heritage.  Finance and economics are but one policy section/ concern of what Douglas embraces.

Peter H

----- Original Message -----

From: Keith Wilde

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 10:31 AM

Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort

OK Peter, I will concede some failure to comprehend:

You say:

"You know very well the relationship between Social Credit and Christianity."

In fact, I do not. Since attempting intermittently to follow these discussions for most of five years I have been often bewildered and sometimes mystified by that relationship. If it in fact entails an endorsement of Biblical mythology then your remarks do take on greater meaning for me, especially your inferences that science and truth can take divergent paths and that the authority of scripture is based on something other than verbal repetition (the technique, incidentally, of Islamic fundamentalists who promote the Al Qaeda solution).

If I have understood you correctly after these efforts, then I have indeed been mistaken in having spent so much time trying to get my head around the Douglas concepts.

And it all does prompt me to ask if you ever did provide the answer to Bill Ryan's question: "Is English a second language for you?" You may have answered, but I do not recall what it was.

Keith

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Haines

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 11:40 PM

Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort

Howdy Keith,

I liked your comments and the use of Sherlock Holmes but you aught to know better that when you assume that evolution is science to everyone and the Bible mythology likewise you punch yourself in the nose.

You own yourself an apology. I could say you aught to have done your post before getting into your beer as well but that would be childish.

If my comments were incoherent to you then it is no complement to you as they were in response to your unwise assumption plus you were unable to comprehend.

I wont answer your howler question about what determines scripture, your contempt makes it pointless.

You know very well the relationship between Social Credit and Christianity.

Peter H

----- Original Message -----

From: Keith Wilde

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 2:10 PM

Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort

Peter,

I don't understand the relevance of your comments.

My evocation of belief that species breed true must certainly be one of the oldest examples of inductive reasoning, as demonstrated by its presence in a very old myth. It is neither anti-Biblical (unless you haven't awakened to the mythical character of the Bible), nor is it a sneer on the practice of inferring rules (especially causative ones) from the repetition of what seem to be cause-effect series of actions.

Of what relevance, therefore, your comment about throughbreds?

I did not argue that induction was necessarily a poor procedure; I asserted that Sherlock Holmes stories are not a good illustration of induction.

You say that "Science like truth isnt deterremined by popularity or repetition." Did you think before writing that, or do you really not understand the meaning of the words?

Then this utter howler: "Same thing goes for scripture." If it isn't popularity and repetition that determine scripture, just what do you imagine is the determinant?

I' do agree with your judgment this far: It was an unfortunate choice of example because it seems to have induced this incoherent reply. Why don't you try doing your correspondence before getting into the beer?

Keith

----- Original Message -----

From: Peter Haines

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 2:10 PM

Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort

Howdy Keith,

I though your choice of a pro-psuedo-science anti-Bible example was rather unfortunate. The whole Bible was a detterrent to Marxist theories of the 19th century which was also a more complete understanding of how mankind should live in this world, so what?

I notice the thoroughbred horse industry hasnt been put out of stride due to theories that a horse might breed a catipillar or a fish.

Science like truth isnt deterremined by popularity or repetition.  Same thing goes for scripture.

I would suggest that the funniest side of man has been in the way he has handled science and scripture and theories about them, even funnier than economics. As I said it was unfortunate you chose it.

Peter H

----- Original Message -----

From: Keith Wilde

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 3:03 AM

Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort

Since no one else has come forward to correct John's misconceptions about inductive versus deductive reasoning, I contradict even though my resources for carrying through are still a bit feeble.

I agree with John that just how Douglas came upon his ideas and analysis is not critical in evaluating how well they work.

But to say that Sherlock Holmes represents inductive thinking is to get things in reverse. The Holmes stories are examples of deductive logic. Inductive reasoning is of the kind that infers from repetitive instances a rule that the instances will continue to recur, because it is a law of nature. It is the kind of reasoning that led the authors of Genesis to infer that species breed true because God designed them that way and therefore needed to save them in the Ark. This kind of thinking was a deterrent to acceptance of more complete theories of species and their evolution in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Keith Wilde

---- Original Message -----

From: John G Rawson

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 6:59 PM

Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort

Believe it or not, the best example of inductive reasoning comes from the Sherlock Holmes novels.

Collect date, organise it to make it better understandable, get rid of the obviously wrong answers, and go and have a good sleep, por play a violin, or indulge in hectic sport, or... The subconscious mind will come up with ideas. Treat each destructively to see if it can be eliminated. The one that can't be is probably the best, until new data requires it to be modified. It doesn't matter a stuff where Douglas' analysis comes from or what are its likely causes. Treated inductively it remains by far the best explanation of events last century.

And I believe the various different definitions of money invented by orthodox economists were attempts to get away from it, but surprisingly each seems to confirm it more.

Refgards.    John R.

From: Triumphofthepast@aol.com
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: [socialcredit] Tragedy of Human Effort
Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2006 08:04:52 EST

"It can be tested inductively in that it explains events over the last century that are inexplicable using the alternative. . . . Nothing is proved by induction. But the opposite stands clearly disproved." (Joh n)

That's what I said, I think. However, I thought it worth taking some trouble to identify (1) What is the phenomenon to be explained? and (2) What exactly IS the hypothesis?

Michael
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