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Yes, it is true. The 14 or so monetary reformers in the first Labour Cabinet of ?52 were not all Social Crediters. I'm sure some of them followed Soddy, for example. John A Lee for one was not a Social Crediter. And the Socialists caved in to pressure from the Bank of England.

But the main question you refer to is one of the least of two evils. A political movement at least puts SC ideas before the public. The non-political wing in this country has done nothing whatever effective in this way for fifty to sixty years. And I believe that any "people's" pressure group could become corrupt just as quickly as a party political movement, if ever it gained any strength. Organise human beings for any purpose, and immediately you are into a race between coruption and achievement of its aims.

Frankly, reference to "the government" owning the banking system is pure hypocrisy. What would Douglas' National Credit Authority be but a form of "government" (small g.) agency? We also would put it in a position like the courts, exempt from party political interference. The only difference would be that, instead of money being given to the people and then taxed away from them by government, some of the new money issued would replace taxation.

And please don't give me the completely ridiculous answer that all taxation is unnecessary, in this modern age when populations demand so much of government spending.

Regards. John R.

From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 07:01:20 +1200

I resume you refer to the NZ Social Credit movement John.

Is it not true that the impact of C.H. Douglas worldwide reached within the NZ Labour movement and of those who office in 1934 applied a new appraoch to financing governments role in leading the nation, providing work and homes etc. As the article Joe referred to shows it was never social credit ( perhaps more like liberal socialism) and the same applies today people who are inspired like using the term 'social credit' but dont want to follow Douglas.

The whole thing turns on the underlying philosophy, which is why so many talk about money as a seperate subject away from its true context.

So we have 'social crediters' today wanting to have govt 'own' the money system and bring in some form of dividend alone and run with all the monetary reformers because that will create a move that will impact on the media and public.

So a few get into parliament and that is the game set and match?

What happens after that is what happened with the Labour party. The international bankers and the philosophy under the Labour party won out with their eyes closed.

It's the same old 'betrayal' you mentioned all over again.

The goal of social credit ( which is a whole lot more than economics) isnt to win a temporary minor political battle and then slide into bolivion.

Peter H

From: John G Rawson

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 10:38 PM

Subject: RE: [socialcredit] ---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'

Hi Joe.

A slightly different perspective comes from tke fact that the Social Credit movement at this time was non-political and tried to influence political parties etc. It succeeded to some extent with the Labour Party, until the socialist wing took over and displaced it.

It was because of betrayal in this field that the movement turned political and founded its own party, in 1953.

Regards. John R.

From: thomsonhiyu <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] ---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:52:10 -0800
>A short while ago the Moderator of this List posted an extract, from
>what appears to be a history of Depression-era New Zealand politics,
>under the title "The Red Dawn". Some of the Kiwis on this list seem to
>be familiar with the political characters portrayed in it, and issues
>involved. To those of us not resident in that great Dominion, both
>characters and issues prevailing at that time and place are largely
>unknown.
>
>What DOES come through very clearly though, is that just like in
>Alberta, British Columbia, the UK, and Canada as a whole, most of the
>people advocating 'Social Credit' through the aegis of some "political
>Party" really had very little conception of what Douglas's proposals
>actually entailed.
>
>And if they did, many then wouldn't likely have agreed with them
>anyways. And, from seeing what recently appeared in ELECTRONZ-611
>below, it seems obvious their successors still wouldn't.
>
>Some of that's understandable. Douglas is not an easy read, nor are his
>meanings and reasons always clear without considerable study,
>discussion, and assistance. Even then there are places where his exact
>ideas on certain things are still open to question, and will often be
>hotly debated. It still remains for us to 'put all the pieces together'
>in the way that works best. Though it's often a slow, frustrating
>process, fraught sometimes with 'bad tempers' and 'bruised egos', those
>'pieces', I feel anyways, ARE ALL THERE, and progress IS being made.
>Those who'll 'stay the course' WILL find the answers that've long eluded
>us.
>
>Sadly, though, rather than attempting to stay that course and 'put all
>the pieces together', it seems there are a considerable number of
>people, still determined to describe themselves as 'Social Crediters',
>who'd just as soon put all the pieces aside. They have another agenda,
>and they're in a hurry to pursue it. They won't learn from past
>mistakes, but rather insist on having the chance to repeat them. Even
>though the outcome will be just the same, and the failures just as
>certain.
>
>They may, in certain places, when it suits their purposes, still pay
>lip-service to Douglas as the 'founder', or 'originator' of 'Social
>Credit'. In other places, British Columbia, I'm sad to say, he isn't
>even afforded that honour. Which, considering what that tiny group of
>would be 'politicians' still operating a "Party" here under that
>nostalgic label actually stand for nowadays, may be just as well.
>
>Far better we try to LEARN first what promise Douglas really holds, and
>how it can be brought to fruition. If that 'promise' is indeed what we
>DO want. Rather than to flit from one false 'monetary' or 'political'
>prescription to another under a 'Social Credit' name that can never
>then be more than a 'label-of-convenience', and will only perpetuate
>the very miseries we hoped to alleviate.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Wallace M. Klinck [mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca]
>Sent: March 29, 2006 11:13 PM
>To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>Subject: [socialcredit] Fw: offlist---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>To: "Wallace M. Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 3:04 AM
>Subject: offlist---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611
>
>
> > Wally, will you please re-post this message to list
> > socialcredit?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > --- "Wallace M. Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>Don [Bethune],
>
> Obviously, the Zarlenga proposals are not Social Credit and appear to
>be,
>in fact, in many ways its antithesis. Among other things, they would
>seem
>to give the state a monopoly over this issue of money or credit, aim
>for
>price "stability" rather than a falling price-level, incorporate a
>public
>policy of "full-employment" (implying that "work" should be the
>essential
>required basis of consumer access to goods and services) rather than
>providing opportunity for increasing leisure--and they do not provide
>for
>increasing consumer control of production policy. This is all
>reminiscent
>of fascism and/or Bolshevism, I would think. See Bill Ryan's recent
>quote
>from British Fascist leader Sir Oswald Mosley where the latter
>specifically
>rejects Major Douglas's proposals for direct consumer credits as
>entirely
>incompatible with (British) fascist principles.
>
>Wally
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Electronz Ezine" <electronz@dominc.net>
> >> To: <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 7:16 PM
> >> Subject: ELECTRONZ - 611
> >>
> >>
> >> > ELECTRONZ - 611
> >> > 28 March 2006
> >> > Weekly international Ezine focusing on the New
> >> Economics
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>========================================================================
>====
> >> >
> >> > In this issue:
> >> >
> >> > [ 1 ] AMI IN ACTION
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>========================================================================
>====
> >> >
> >> > [ 1 ] AMI IN ACTION
> >> >
> >> > Introductory Comments:
> >> >
> >> > "Stepping past the local currency enthusiasts, who
> >> seem to either not understand how the present privately owned credit
> >> creating racket operates - or are frightened of upsetting it, there
>is
> >> one
> >> common principle that can be found among the plethora of real (as
> >> distinct
> >> from superficial) monetary reform proposals. It is that the
>inherent
> >> benefit
> >> in creating the nation's money supply belongs to the community, and
>that
> >> where it has been usurped by a privately owned institution, such as
>the
> >> banking
> >> fraternity, then if this civilization is to progress with an
>equitable
> >> sharing of the wealth it is
> >> > producing, then that right must be repossessed by the state on
>behalf
> >> > of
> >> > the populace.
> >> >
> >> > The AMI, driven by author and Director Stephen Zarlenga, has
>developed
> >> > a
> >> > blueprint for such a repossession exercise, aimed specifically at
>the
> >> > worlds
> >> > wealthiest (and most indebted) country. We are please to reproduce
>
> >> > that
> >> > blueprint:
> >> >
> >> > AMERICAN MONETARY ACT
> >> >
> >> > An Act to restore the Constitutional power to create Money to the
> >> > Congress of the United States
> >> >
> >> > Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
>United
> >> > States of America in Congress assembled,
> >> >
> >> > SEC 1. SHORT TITLE
> >> >
> >> > This Act may be cited as the American Monetary Act
> >> >
> >> > SEC 2. FINDINGS
> >> >
> >> > The Congress finds that -
> >> >
> >> > (1) The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 effectively ceded the sovereign
>
> >> > power to create Money delegated to Congress by the Constitution to
>the
> >> > private financial industry.
> >> > (2) This cession of Constitutional power has resulted in a
>multitude of
> >> > monetary and financial afflictions, including an uncontrollable
> >> > national debt, excessive taxation of citizens, inflation of the
> >> > currency, drastic increases in the cost of public infrastructure
> >> > investments, excessive un-and under-employment, and erosion of the
> >> > ability of Congress to exercise its Constitutional responsibilities
>to
> >> > provide for the common defense and general welfare.
> >> > (3) The issue of means of exchange by private financial
>institutions as
> >> > interest-bearing debts should cease once and for all.
> >> > (4) The power of Government to create Money and spend or loan it
>into
> >> > circulation as needed is similar but different in nature from the
>power
> >> > to create and market instruments of indebtedness; it eliminates the
>
> >> > need to pay interest charges to financial institutions and removes
> >> > their undue influence over public policy.
> >> > (5) Direct disbursement of United States Money can be readily and
> >> > easily implemented, including replacement of Federal Reserve Notes
>and
> >> > retirement of debt.
> >> > (6) The Federal Reserve System shall be retained as a central bank
>of
> >> > issue, a national fund processing clearinghouse, and a fiscal agent
>for
> >> > the Government and should be incorporated within the
> >> US Treasury. It should no longer be utilized to introduce liquidity
>into
> >> the currency system through interest-bearing debts.
> >> > (7) Government policy with regard to monetary supply should be
>based on
> >> > the principle of furnishing sufficient liquidity to support the
> >> > reasoned sustainable expansion of the physical economy, providing
>for
> >> > the common defense and general welfare of the United States, and
>full
> >> > employment of the nation's working population.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > TITLE I - DISBURSEMENT OF UNITED STATES MONEY
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 101 AUTHORIZATION FOR DISBURSEMENT
> >> >
> >> > Not later than 90 days after the effective date of this section,
>all
> >> > United States Government disbursements shall be denominated in
>United
> >> > States Money, the nominal unit being the U.S. Dollar.
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 102 LEGAL TENDER
> >> >
> >> > United States Money shall enter into general domestic circulation
>as
> >> > full legal tender in payment of all debts public and private.
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 103 NEGATIVE FUND BALANCES
> >> >
> >> > The Secretary of the Treasury shall directly issue United States
>Money
> >> > to account for any differences between Government appropriations
> >> > authorized by Congress under law and available Government receipts.
> >> >
> >> > Note: The fact that Treasury will be able to make disbursements
>based
> >> > on direct issuance of United States Money for negative fund
>balances
> >> > reflects Congress's Constitutional authority to "coin Money",
>because
> >> > Congress will then have the ability to adjust the amount of Money
>so
> >> > created by regulating both appropriations as well as revenues from
> >> > taxation and other sources.
> >> > The focal point of power will be the House of Representatives as
>the
> >> > initiator of revenue bills. Restoring to Congress its
>Constitutional
> >> > authority will shift the ability to create Money and enter it into
> >> > circulation from the private banking industry to our elected
> >> > representatives, as the Constitution mandates.
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 104 FORECASTING OF DISBURSEMENT REQUIREMENTS
> >> >
> >> > The Secretary shall:
> >> >
> >> > (1) forecast disbursement requirements on a daily, monthly, and
>annual
> >> > basis;
> >> > (2) provide such forecasts to Congress and the public;
> >> > (3) integrate forecasts with the Federal budget process;
> >> > (4) maintain a sufficient research capability to continuously and
> >> > effectively assess the impact of disbursement of United States
>Money
> >> > on all aspects of the domestic and international economies;
> >> > (5) report to Congress and the public regularly on the economic
>impact
> >> > of disbursements of United States Money and the status of the
>monetary
> >> > supply.
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 105 MONETARY CONTROL
> >> >
> >> > (1) The Secretary shall pursue the policy that the supply of money
>in
> >> > circulation should not become inflationary nor deflationary in and
>of
> >> > itself.
> >> > (2) Monetary supply targets shall be established by a Monetary
>Control
> >> > Board consisting of nine public members appointed for staggered
> >> > six-year terms by the President with the advice and consent of
>the
> >> > Senate and reporting for administrative purposes to the Secretary.
> >> > (3) Responsibility to regulate the monetary supply in reasonable
> >> > accordance with targets established by the Monetary Control Board
>shall
> >> > rest with the Secretary of the Treasury.
> >> > (4) The Secretary shall report to Congress any discrepancies
>between
> >> > targets and supply in excess of two percent at the end of each
>quarter.
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 106. DISBURSEMENT IN LIEU OF BORROWING
> >> >
> >> > (1) Disbursement of United States Money under this Act shall be
>made in
> >> > lieu of borrowing through Treasury instruments.
> >> > (2) Such borrowing shall cease as of the date stated in Section 101
>of
> >> > this title, unless otherwise authorized by Congress;
> >> > (3) Nothing in this Act shall prevent Congress from exercising its
> >> > Constitutional authority to borrow on the full faith and credit of
>the
> >> > United States.
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 107 ACCOUNTING
> >> >
> >> > The Secretary shall account for the disbursement of United States
>Money
> >> > and of current fund balances through accounting reports maintained
>and
> >> > published by the Secretary and by departments and agencies of the
> >> > Government. The General Accountability Office shall conduct an
> >> > independent audit every second year.
> >> >
> >> > TITLE II - RETIREMENT OF INSTRUMENTS OF
> >> INDEBTEDNESS
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 201 COMMENCEMENT OF RETIREMENT
> >> >
> >> > Not later than one year from the effective date of this section,
>the
> >> > Secretary shall commence to retire all outstanding instruments of
> >> > indebtedness of the United States by payment in full of the amount
>
> >> > legally due the bearer in United States Money, as such amounts
>become
> >> > due.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > CONCLUDED NEXT WEEK
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>========================================================================
>====
> >> > Thank you for your ongoing support.
> >> > As always, your feedback is welcome and
> >> appreciated.
> >> > For all past issues the archive link is:
> >> > www.electronz.cjb.net
> >> > electronz@ihug.co.nz - Current Backup is:
> >> electronz@dominc.net
> >> > Copyright Electronz, 2006.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
>========================================================================
>====
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > If you wish not to receive any more email click
> >> the below link.
> >> >
> >>
> > http://www.dominc.net/etronz/r.asp?a=uc&e=wmklinck@shaw.ca
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