|
Howdy John,
I believe that Douglas was influencing thinking in
the NZ Labour movement by about the mid-twenties. This is before the
crash of 29. The Labour movement also created an education division and I
think it was in the late twenties, in order to bring political
activists up to speed for political bun fights. Savage may well have been
one of its students, no doubt the major topic of that division would be
economics.
"And the socialists caved in to pressure from the
Bank of England."
This adds to the point I made about winning a
temporary political battle and then comes the slide...
Blame the socialists. What happens when the
govt battens down the hatches and the heat comes on, they become dogmeat
overnight when the fickle voters start to feel the pinch. The fight only
really begins after the reformers win the treasury benches. Powerful
forces unknown arrive from nowhere. The 1940 speach by Churchill ( we will
fight them on the beaches...) rallied the people and they become
unbeatable.
When the depression was over and money was flowing
as normal the public conviction melted in the sunshine. Once again its the
same situation, MPs or political activists have all the conviction on behalf of
the public who should look to those with the conviction to make the decisions
about what is good for the public. That isnt democracy nor Social
Credit. Douglas wanted the people to develop experience/conviction
about who rules in a democracy, who the systems serve.
Your law-of-excluded middle style of argument, akin
to dialectic materialism, trying to claim its a toss-up between two
evils which Don also uses is no better than a straw argument. When
the NCA should be an easy issue for the two factions within Social Credit to
agree on it becomes a bone of contention. This to my mind is a telling
factor. The Douglas way is a third way, to claim there are only two
options makes the moving of Douglas out of the equation necessary for
you.
Firstly the govt may own pens and computers etc but
the people really own the buildings, limozines, state enterpises, National
Parks, money and departments like Reserve Bank and Treasury. Socialism is
when the govt owns all these.
Secondly the Douglas proposals in effect makes the
consumers ( everybody) the masters over the economic system AND incorporates
decentralisation.
That is the opposite of govt owning the money
system. Your suggestion that it is so much the same to be hypercritical
shows you are either essentially a socialist or your understanding of social
credit is lacking.
I will leave out the issue of tax. I take it
that this is another area that gets filed in the Douglas-out-of-date
file.
The main reason the role of govt is so important
for many is the effects of the current financial/economic system. If it is
substantially changed then surely the role of govt will change
substantially as well, change also reflecting the individual who will be
more financially able to look after themselves. If most people will become
sentimental about taxes and govt bureaucracy and high interest
rates and inflation why bother to change?
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:36
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ---Re:
ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Yes, it is true. The 14 or so monetary reformers in the first Labour
Cabinet of ?52 were not all Social Crediters. I'm sure some of them
followed Soddy, for example. John A Lee for one was not a Social
Crediter. And the Socialists caved in to pressure from the Bank of
England.
But the main question you refer to is one of the least of two evils.
A political movement at least puts SC ideas before the public. The
non-political wing in this country has done nothing whatever effective in this
way for fifty to sixty years. And I believe that any "people's" pressure
group could become corrupt just as quickly as a party political movement, if
ever it gained any strength. Organise human beings for any purpose, and
immediately you are into a race between coruption and achievement of its
aims.
Frankly, reference to "the government" owning the banking system is pure
hypocrisy. What would Douglas' National Credit Authority be but a form of
"government" (small g.) agency? We also would put it in a position like
the courts, exempt from party political interference. The only
difference would be that, instead of money being given to the people and then
taxed away from them by government, some of the new money issued would replace
taxation.
And please don't give me the completely ridiculous answer that all taxation
is unnecessary, in this modern age when populations demand so much of
government spending.
Regards. John R.
From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006
07:01:20 +1200
I resume you refer to the NZ Social Credit
movement John.
Is it not true that the impact of C.H. Douglas
worldwide reached within the NZ Labour movement and of those
who office in 1934 applied a new appraoch to financing governments role
in leading the nation, providing work and homes etc. As the article
Joe referred to shows it was never social credit ( perhaps more like liberal
socialism) and the same applies today people who are inspired like using the
term 'social credit' but dont want to follow Douglas.
The whole thing turns on the underlying
philosophy, which is why so many talk about money as a seperate
subject away from its true context.
So we have 'social crediters' today wanting to
have govt 'own' the money system and bring in some form of dividend alone
and run with all the monetary reformers because that will create a move that
will impact on the media and public.
So a few get into parliament and that is the
game set and match?
What happens after that is what happened with
the Labour party. The international bankers and the philosophy under
the Labour party won out with their eyes closed.
It's the same old 'betrayal' you
mentioned all over again.
The goal of social credit ( which is a whole
lot more than economics) isnt to win a temporary minor political battle and
then slide into bolivion.
Peter H
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 10:38
PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] ---Re:
ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Hi Joe.
A slightly different perspective comes from tke fact that the Social
Credit movement at this time was non-political and tried to influence
political parties etc. It succeeded to some extent with the Labour
Party, until the socialist wing took over and displaced it.
It was because of betrayal in this field that the movement turned
political and founded its own party, in 1953.
Regards.
John R.
From: thomsonhiyu <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] ---Re:
ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2006
08:52:10 -0800
>A short while ago the Moderator of this List
posted an extract, from
>what appears to be a history of
Depression-era New Zealand politics,
>under the title "The Red
Dawn". Some of the Kiwis on this list seem to
>be familiar with
the political characters portrayed in it, and issues
>involved. To
those of us not resident in that great Dominion, both
>characters
and issues prevailing at that time and place are
largely
>unknown.
>
>What DOES come through very
clearly though, is that just like in
>Alberta, British Columbia,
the UK, and Canada as a whole, most of the
>people advocating
'Social Credit' through the aegis of some "political
>Party"
really had very little conception of what Douglas's
proposals
>actually entailed.
>
>And if they did, many
then wouldn't likely have agreed with them
>anyways. And, from
seeing what recently appeared in ELECTRONZ-611
>below, it seems
obvious their successors still wouldn't.
>
>Some of that's
understandable. Douglas is not an easy read, nor are his
>meanings
and reasons always clear without considerable study,
>discussion,
and assistance. Even then there are places where his exact
>ideas
on certain things are still open to question, and will often
be
>hotly debated. It still remains for us to 'put all the pieces
together'
>in the way that works best. Though it's often a slow,
frustrating
>process, fraught sometimes with 'bad tempers' and
'bruised egos', those
>'pieces', I feel anyways, ARE ALL THERE,
and progress IS being made.
>Those who'll 'stay the course' WILL
find the answers that've long eluded
>us.
>
>Sadly,
though, rather than attempting to stay that course and 'put
all
>the pieces together', it seems there are a considerable
number of
>people, still determined to describe themselves as
'Social Crediters',
>who'd just as soon put all the pieces aside.
They have another agenda,
>and they're in a hurry to pursue it.
They won't learn from past
>mistakes, but rather insist on having
the chance to repeat them. Even
>though the outcome will be just
the same, and the failures just as
>certain.
>
>They
may, in certain places, when it suits their purposes, still
pay
>lip-service to Douglas as the 'founder', or 'originator' of
'Social
>Credit'. In other places, British Columbia, I'm sad to
say, he isn't
>even afforded that honour. Which, considering what
that tiny group of
>would be 'politicians' still operating a
"Party" here under that
>nostalgic label actually stand for
nowadays, may be just as well.
>
>Far better we try to LEARN
first what promise Douglas really holds, and
>how it can be
brought to fruition. If that 'promise' is indeed what we
>DO want.
Rather than to flit from one false 'monetary' or
'political'
>prescription to another under a 'Social Credit' name
that can never
>then be more than a 'label-of-convenience', and
will only perpetuate
>the very miseries we hoped to
alleviate.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original
Message-----
>From: Wallace M. Klinck
[mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca]
>Sent: March 29, 2006 11:13
PM
>To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>Subject: [socialcredit]
Fw: offlist---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611
>
>----- Original Message
-----
>From: "William B. Ryan"
<w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>To: "Wallace M. Klinck"
<wmklinck@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2006 3:04
AM
>Subject: offlist---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611
>
>
>
> Wally, will you please re-post this message to list
> >
socialcredit?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>
>
> > --- "Wallace M. Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
wrote:
>
>Don [Bethune],
>
> Obviously, the
Zarlenga proposals are not Social Credit and appear
to
>be,
>in fact, in many ways its antithesis. Among other
things, they would
>seem
>to give the state a monopoly over
this issue of money or credit, aim
>for
>price "stability"
rather than a falling price-level, incorporate
a
>public
>policy of "full-employment" (implying that "work"
should be the
>essential
>required basis of consumer access
to goods and services) rather than
>providing opportunity for
increasing leisure--and they do not provide
>for
>increasing
consumer control of production policy. This is
all
>reminiscent
>of fascism and/or Bolshevism, I would
think. See Bill Ryan's recent
>quote
>from British Fascist
leader Sir Oswald Mosley where the
latter
>specifically
>rejects Major Douglas's proposals for
direct consumer credits as
>entirely
>incompatible with
(British) fascist principles.
>
>Wally
>
>>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
From: "Electronz Ezine" <electronz@dominc.net>
> >>
To: <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 27,
2006 7:16 PM
> >> Subject: ELECTRONZ - 611
>
>>
> >>
> >> > ELECTRONZ - 611
>
>> > 28 March 2006
> >> > Weekly international
Ezine focusing on the New
> >> Economics
> >>
>
> >> >
> >>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> >
> >> > In this issue:
> >>
>
> >> > [ 1 ] AMI IN ACTION
> >>
>
> >> >
> >>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> >
> >> > [ 1 ] AMI IN ACTION
> >>
>
> >> > Introductory Comments:
> >>
>
> >> > "Stepping past the local currency
enthusiasts, who
> >> seem to either not understand how the
present privately owned credit
> >> creating racket operates
- or are frightened of upsetting it, there
>is
> >>
one
> >> common principle that can be found among the
plethora of real (as
> >> distinct
> >> from
superficial) monetary reform proposals. It is that
the
>inherent
> >> benefit
> >> in
creating the nation's money supply belongs to the community,
and
>that
> >> where it has been usurped by a
privately owned institution, such as
>the
> >>
banking
> >> fraternity, then if this civilization is to
progress with an
>equitable
> >> sharing of the wealth
it is
> >> > producing, then that right must be
repossessed by the state on
>behalf
> >> >
of
> >> > the populace.
> >> >
>
>> > The AMI, driven by author and Director Stephen Zarlenga,
has
>developed
> >> > a
> >> >
blueprint for such a repossession exercise, aimed specifically
at
>the
> >> > worlds
> >> >
wealthiest (and most indebted) country. We are please to
reproduce
>
> >> > that
> >> >
blueprint:
> >> >
> >> > AMERICAN MONETARY
ACT
> >> >
> >> > An Act to restore the
Constitutional power to create Money to the
> >> >
Congress of the United States
> >> >
> >>
> Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of
the
>United
> >> > States of America in Congress
assembled,
> >> >
> >> > SEC 1. SHORT
TITLE
> >> >
> >> > This Act may be cited
as the American Monetary Act
> >> >
> >> >
SEC 2. FINDINGS
> >> >
> >> > The Congress
finds that -
> >> >
> >> > (1) The Federal
Reserve Act of 1913 effectively ceded the sovereign
>
>
>> > power to create Money delegated to Congress by the
Constitution to
>the
> >> > private financial
industry.
> >> > (2) This cession of Constitutional power
has resulted in a
>multitude of
> >> > monetary and
financial afflictions, including an uncontrollable
> >> >
national debt, excessive taxation of citizens, inflation of the
>
>> > currency, drastic increases in the cost of public
infrastructure
> >> > investments, excessive un-and
under-employment, and erosion of the
> >> > ability of
Congress to exercise its Constitutional
responsibilities
>to
> >> > provide for the common
defense and general welfare.
> >> > (3) The issue of
means of exchange by private financial
>institutions as
>
>> > interest-bearing debts should cease once and for
all.
> >> > (4) The power of Government to create Money
and spend or loan it
>into
> >> > circulation as
needed is similar but different in nature from the
>power
>
>> > to create and market instruments of indebtedness; it
eliminates the
>
> >> > need to pay interest
charges to financial institutions and removes
> >> >
their undue influence over public policy.
> >> > (5)
Direct disbursement of United States Money can be readily and
>
>> > easily implemented, including replacement of Federal
Reserve Notes
>and
> >> > retirement of
debt.
> >> > (6) The Federal Reserve System shall be
retained as a central bank
>of
> >> > issue, a
national fund processing clearinghouse, and a fiscal
agent
>for
> >> > the Government and should be
incorporated within the
> >> US Treasury. It should no
longer be utilized to introduce liquidity
>into
> >>
the currency system through interest-bearing debts.
> >>
> (7) Government policy with regard to monetary supply should
be
>based on
> >> > the principle of furnishing
sufficient liquidity to support the
> >> > reasoned
sustainable expansion of the physical economy,
providing
>for
> >> > the common defense and
general welfare of the United States, and
>full
> >>
> employment of the nation's working population.
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> > TITLE I - DISBURSEMENT
OF UNITED STATES MONEY
> >> >
> >> > SEC.
101 AUTHORIZATION FOR DISBURSEMENT
> >> >
>
>> > Not later than 90 days after the effective date of this
section,
>all
> >> > United States Government
disbursements shall be denominated in
>United
> >>
> States Money, the nominal unit being the U.S. Dollar.
>
>> >
> >> > SEC. 102 LEGAL TENDER
>
>> >
> >> > United States Money shall enter into
general domestic circulation
>as
> >> > full legal
tender in payment of all debts public and private.
> >>
>
> >> > SEC. 103 NEGATIVE FUND BALANCES
>
>> >
> >> > The Secretary of the Treasury shall
directly issue United States
>Money
> >> > to
account for any differences between Government appropriations
>
>> > authorized by Congress under law and available Government
receipts.
> >> >
> >> > Note: The fact
that Treasury will be able to make disbursements
>based
>
>> > on direct issuance of United States Money for negative
fund
>balances
> >> > reflects Congress's
Constitutional authority to "coin Money",
>because
>
>> > Congress will then have the ability to adjust the amount
of Money
>so
> >> > created by regulating both
appropriations as well as revenues from
> >> > taxation
and other sources.
> >> > The focal point of power will
be the House of Representatives as
>the
> >> >
initiator of revenue bills. Restoring to Congress
its
>Constitutional
> >> > authority will shift the
ability to create Money and enter it into
> >> >
circulation from the private banking industry to our elected
>
>> > representatives, as the Constitution mandates.
>
>> >
> >> > SEC. 104 FORECASTING OF DISBURSEMENT
REQUIREMENTS
> >> >
> >> > The Secretary
shall:
> >> >
> >> > (1) forecast
disbursement requirements on a daily, monthly, and
>annual
>
>> > basis;
> >> > (2) provide such forecasts to
Congress and the public;
> >> > (3) integrate forecasts
with the Federal budget process;
> >> > (4) maintain a
sufficient research capability to continuously and
> >> >
effectively assess the impact of disbursement of United
States
>Money
> >> > on all aspects of the domestic
and international economies;
> >> > (5) report to
Congress and the public regularly on the economic
>impact
>
>> > of disbursements of United States Money and the status of
the
>monetary
> >> > supply.
> >>
>
> >> > SEC. 105 MONETARY CONTROL
> >>
>
> >> > (1) The Secretary shall pursue the policy
that the supply of money
>in
> >> > circulation
should not become inflationary nor deflationary in and
>of
>
>> > itself.
> >> > (2) Monetary supply targets
shall be established by a Monetary
>Control
> >> >
Board consisting of nine public members appointed for staggered
>
>> > six-year terms by the President with the advice and
consent of
>the
> >> > Senate and reporting for
administrative purposes to the Secretary.
> >> > (3)
Responsibility to regulate the monetary supply in reasonable
>
>> > accordance with targets established by the Monetary
Control Board
>shall
> >> > rest with the Secretary
of the Treasury.
> >> > (4) The Secretary shall report to
Congress any discrepancies
>between
> >> > targets
and supply in excess of two percent at the end of
each
>quarter.
> >> >
> >> > SEC.
106. DISBURSEMENT IN LIEU OF BORROWING
> >> >
>
>> > (1) Disbursement of United States Money under this Act
shall be
>made in
> >> > lieu of borrowing through
Treasury instruments.
> >> > (2) Such borrowing shall
cease as of the date stated in Section 101
>of
> >>
> this title, unless otherwise authorized by Congress;
>
>> > (3) Nothing in this Act shall prevent Congress from
exercising its
> >> > Constitutional authority to borrow
on the full faith and credit of
>the
> >> > United
States.
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 107
ACCOUNTING
> >> >
> >> > The Secretary
shall account for the disbursement of United States
>Money
>
>> > and of current fund balances through accounting reports
maintained
>and
> >> > published by the Secretary
and by departments and agencies of the
> >> > Government.
The General Accountability Office shall conduct an
> >> >
independent audit every second year.
> >> >
>
>> > TITLE II - RETIREMENT OF INSTRUMENTS OF
> >>
INDEBTEDNESS
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 201
COMMENCEMENT OF RETIREMENT
> >> >
> >> >
Not later than one year from the effective date of this
section,
>the
> >> > Secretary shall commence to
retire all outstanding instruments of
> >> > indebtedness
of the United States by payment in full of the amount
>
>
>> > legally due the bearer in United States Money, as such
amounts
>become
> >> > due.
> >>
>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
CONCLUDED NEXT WEEK
> >> >
> >> >
>
>>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> > Thank you for your ongoing support.
> >> >
As always, your feedback is welcome and
> >>
appreciated.
> >> > For all past issues the archive link
is:
> >> > www.electronz.cjb.net
> >> >
electronz@ihug.co.nz - Current Backup is:
> >>
electronz@dominc.net
> >> > Copyright Electronz,
2006.
> >> >
> >> >
>
>>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> >
> >> >
> >> > If you wish
not to receive any more email click
> >> the below
link.
> >> >
> >>
> >
http://www.dominc.net/etronz/r.asp?a=uc&e=wmklinck@shaw.ca
>
>> >
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>
> >
> >
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