|
An extreme of decentralisation is Ayn Rand.
Social credit is people working together for intended results. Rand is
everyman is an island which suits the mutli-nationals as neither govt or
organised people get in their way which would result in corporate dominated
fascism.
We cant have community without council and likewise
on a national scale. But there is a likely move towards the Swiss model
under a social credit society where central govt is smaller I understand than in
the rest of the western world and more decisions made at a local level.
One of the drivers for centralisation is debt ( international banking
policy) to save costs. We could focus on saving resourses instead as
we should if we were free.
'Money' is the easy one to work out if some
things are better done on a national or regional scale as opposed to
private.
But I believe the choice of how the finance system
is run/controlled, ie govt or the 'people', is coupled with the preferred
conception of how strong a role govt should play in society. And the
bigger the role of govt the bigger the prize for politicians.
These discussions are as much about the desire for
power as about efficiency and social justice. Economics isnt a stand alone
subject, a flaw Douglas doesnt fall into.
Those that want to go the party politics way also
want govt to control the purse, it is logical and the divide will remain over
power not Douglas. Its rather like republicanism
(state) v democracy (people) isnt it?
One has to grow at the expense of the
other.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:42
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ---Re:
ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Thanks, Peter. Many truths in your statement too.
Long ago, I worked out that the only real difference between true Socialism
and Social Credit was that, in the former, Government would have
the priority use of money and therefore determine what should be
procuced. (I am not referring to the modern so-called socialist
governments that are firmly wedded to the financial and other multinationals
and happily endorse the debt system of finance.) Under SC, the consumer
would have "economic democracy" and by his/her buying habits, determine what
should be produced.
But I believe an absolute extreme of either could be disastrous.
There are some things better supplied by central organisation in any
system. And just which could depend on the approach , perhaps , like
now, the fashion of the time, in each nation.
Regards. John R.
From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006
17:43:39 +1200
Howdy John,
I believe that Douglas was influencing thinking
in the NZ Labour movement by about the mid-twenties. This
is before the crash of 29. The Labour movement also created an
education division and I think it was in the late twenties, in
order to bring political activists up to speed for political bun
fights. Savage may well have been one of its students, no doubt the
major topic of that division would be economics.
"And the socialists caved in to pressure from
the Bank of England."
This adds to the point I made about
winning a temporary political battle and then comes the
slide...
Blame the socialists. What happens when
the govt battens down the hatches and the heat comes on, they become
dogmeat overnight when the fickle voters start to feel the pinch. The
fight only really begins after the reformers win the treasury benches.
Powerful forces unknown arrive from nowhere. The 1940 speach by
Churchill ( we will fight them on the beaches...) rallied the people and
they become unbeatable.
When the depression was over and money was
flowing as normal the public conviction melted in the sunshine. Once
again its the same situation, MPs or political activists have all the
conviction on behalf of the public who should look to those with the
conviction to make the decisions about what is good for the public.
That isnt democracy nor Social Credit. Douglas wanted the people
to develop experience/conviction about who rules in a democracy, who the
systems serve.
Your law-of-excluded middle style of argument,
akin to dialectic materialism, trying to claim its a toss-up between two
evils which Don also uses is no better than a straw argument.
When the NCA should be an easy issue for the two factions within Social
Credit to agree on it becomes a bone of contention. This to my mind is
a telling factor. The Douglas way is a third way, to claim there are
only two options makes the moving of Douglas out of the equation necessary
for you.
Firstly the govt may own pens and computers etc
but the people really own the buildings, limozines, state enterpises,
National Parks, money and departments like Reserve Bank and Treasury.
Socialism is when the govt owns all these.
Secondly the Douglas proposals in effect makes
the consumers ( everybody) the masters over the economic system AND
incorporates decentralisation.
That is the opposite of govt owning the money
system. Your suggestion that it is so much the same to be
hypercritical shows you are either essentially a socialist or your
understanding of social credit is lacking.
I will leave out the issue of tax. I take
it that this is another area that gets filed in the Douglas-out-of-date
file.
The main reason the role of govt is so
important for many is the effects of the current financial/economic
system. If it is substantially changed then surely the role of govt
will change substantially as well, change also reflecting the
individual who will be more financially able to look after themselves.
If most people will become sentimental about taxes and govt bureaucracy
and high interest rates and inflation why bother to
change?
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:36
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ---Re:
ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Yes, it is true. The 14 or so monetary reformers in the first
Labour Cabinet of ?52 were not all Social Crediters. I'm sure some of
them followed Soddy, for example. John A Lee for one was not a Social
Crediter. And the Socialists caved in to pressure from the Bank of
England.
But the main question you refer to is one of the least of two
evils. A political movement at least puts SC ideas before the
public. The non-political wing in this country has done nothing
whatever effective in this way for fifty to sixty years. And I
believe that any "people's" pressure group could become corrupt just as
quickly as a party political movement, if ever it gained any strength.
Organise human beings for any purpose, and immediately you are into a
race between coruption and achievement of its aims.
Frankly, reference to "the government" owning the banking system is
pure hypocrisy. What would Douglas' National Credit Authority be but a
form of "government" (small g.) agency? We also would put it in a
position like the courts, exempt from party political interference.
The only difference would be that, instead of money being given to the
people and then taxed away from them by government, some of the new money
issued would replace taxation.
And please don't give me the completely ridiculous answer that all
taxation is unnecessary, in this modern age when populations demand
so much of government spending.
Regards. John
R.
From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] ---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Date:
Tue, 4 Apr 2006 07:01:20 +1200
I resume you refer to the NZ Social Credit
movement John.
Is it not true that the impact of C.H.
Douglas worldwide reached within the NZ Labour movement and of
those who office in 1934 applied a new appraoch to financing
governments role in leading the nation, providing work and homes
etc. As the article Joe referred to shows it was never social
credit ( perhaps more like liberal socialism) and the same applies today
people who are inspired like using the term 'social credit' but dont
want to follow Douglas.
The whole thing turns on the underlying
philosophy, which is why so many talk about money as a seperate
subject away from its true context.
So we have 'social crediters' today wanting
to have govt 'own' the money system and bring in some form of dividend
alone and run with all the monetary reformers because that will create a
move that will impact on the media and public.
So a few get into parliament and that is
the game set and match?
What happens after that is what happened
with the Labour party. The international bankers and the
philosophy under the Labour party won out with their eyes
closed.
It's the same old 'betrayal' you
mentioned all over again.
The goal of social credit ( which is a
whole lot more than economics) isnt to win a temporary minor political
battle and then slide into bolivion.
Peter H
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006
10:38 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit]
---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Hi Joe.
A slightly different perspective comes from tke fact that the
Social Credit movement at this time was non-political and tried to
influence political parties etc. It succeeded to some extent
with the Labour Party, until the socialist wing took over
and displaced it.
It was because of betrayal in this field that the movement turned
political and founded its own party, in
1953.
Regards. John
R.
From: thomsonhiyu <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
Reply-To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: RE: [socialcredit]
---Re: ELECTRONZ - 611 and the 'Red Dawn'
Date: Thu, 30
Mar 2006 08:52:10 -0800
>A short while ago the Moderator
of this List posted an extract, from
>what appears to be a
history of Depression-era New Zealand politics,
>under the
title "The Red Dawn". Some of the Kiwis on this list seem
to
>be familiar with the political characters portrayed in it,
and issues
>involved. To those of us not resident in that
great Dominion, both
>characters and issues prevailing at that
time and place are largely
>unknown.
>
>What DOES
come through very clearly though, is that just like
in
>Alberta, British Columbia, the UK, and Canada as a whole,
most of the
>people advocating 'Social Credit' through the
aegis of some "political
>Party" really had very little
conception of what Douglas's proposals
>actually
entailed.
>
>And if they did, many then wouldn't likely
have agreed with them
>anyways. And, from seeing what recently
appeared in ELECTRONZ-611
>below, it seems obvious their
successors still wouldn't.
>
>Some of that's
understandable. Douglas is not an easy read, nor are
his
>meanings and reasons always clear without considerable
study,
>discussion, and assistance. Even then there are places
where his exact
>ideas on certain things are still open to
question, and will often be
>hotly debated. It still remains
for us to 'put all the pieces together'
>in the way that works
best. Though it's often a slow, frustrating
>process, fraught
sometimes with 'bad tempers' and 'bruised egos',
those
>'pieces', I feel anyways, ARE ALL THERE, and progress
IS being made.
>Those who'll 'stay the course' WILL find the
answers that've long eluded
>us.
>
>Sadly, though,
rather than attempting to stay that course and 'put all
>the
pieces together', it seems there are a considerable number
of
>people, still determined to describe themselves as 'Social
Crediters',
>who'd just as soon put all the pieces aside. They
have another agenda,
>and they're in a hurry to pursue it.
They won't learn from past
>mistakes, but rather insist on
having the chance to repeat them. Even
>though the outcome
will be just the same, and the failures just
as
>certain.
>
>They may, in certain places, when
it suits their purposes, still pay
>lip-service to Douglas as
the 'founder', or 'originator' of 'Social
>Credit'. In other
places, British Columbia, I'm sad to say, he isn't
>even
afforded that honour. Which, considering what that tiny group
of
>would be 'politicians' still operating a "Party" here
under that
>nostalgic label actually stand for nowadays, may
be just as well.
>
>Far better we try to LEARN first
what promise Douglas really holds, and
>how it can be brought
to fruition. If that 'promise' is indeed what we
>DO want.
Rather than to flit from one false 'monetary' or
'political'
>prescription to another under a 'Social Credit'
name that can never
>then be more than a
'label-of-convenience', and will only perpetuate
>the very
miseries we hoped to
alleviate.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original
Message-----
>From: Wallace M. Klinck
[mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca]
>Sent: March 29, 2006 11:13
PM
>To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>Subject:
[socialcredit] Fw: offlist---Re: ELECTRONZ -
611
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From:
"William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>To: "Wallace M.
Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 28,
2006 3:04 AM
>Subject: offlist---Re: ELECTRONZ -
611
>
>
> > Wally, will you please re-post this
message to list
> > socialcredit?
> >
> >
Thanks.
> >
> >
> > --- "Wallace M.
Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>Don
[Bethune],
>
> Obviously, the Zarlenga proposals are not
Social Credit and appear to
>be,
>in fact, in many ways
its antithesis. Among other things, they would
>seem
>to
give the state a monopoly over this issue of money or credit,
aim
>for
>price "stability" rather than a falling
price-level, incorporate a
>public
>policy of
"full-employment" (implying that "work" should be
the
>essential
>required basis of consumer access to
goods and services) rather than
>providing opportunity for
increasing leisure--and they do not
provide
>for
>increasing consumer control of production
policy. This is all
>reminiscent
>of fascism and/or
Bolshevism, I would think. See Bill Ryan's
recent
>quote
>from British Fascist leader Sir Oswald
Mosley where the latter
>specifically
>rejects Major
Douglas's proposals for direct consumer credits
as
>entirely
>incompatible with (British) fascist
principles.
>
>Wally
> >>
> >>
----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Electronz
Ezine" <electronz@dominc.net>
> >> To:
<wmklinck@shaw.ca>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 27,
2006 7:16 PM
> >> Subject: ELECTRONZ - 611
>
>>
> >>
> >> > ELECTRONZ -
611
> >> > 28 March 2006
> >> > Weekly
international Ezine focusing on the New
> >>
Economics
> >> >
> >> >
>
>>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> >
> >> > In this issue:
> >>
>
> >> > [ 1 ] AMI IN ACTION
> >>
>
> >> >
> >>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> >
> >> > [ 1 ] AMI IN ACTION
>
>> >
> >> > Introductory Comments:
>
>> >
> >> > "Stepping past the local
currency enthusiasts, who
> >> seem to either not
understand how the present privately owned credit
> >>
creating racket operates - or are frightened of upsetting it,
there
>is
> >> one
> >> common
principle that can be found among the plethora of real (as
>
>> distinct
> >> from superficial) monetary reform
proposals. It is that the
>inherent
> >>
benefit
> >> in creating the nation's money supply
belongs to the community, and
>that
> >> where it
has been usurped by a privately owned institution, such
as
>the
> >> banking
> >> fraternity,
then if this civilization is to progress with
an
>equitable
> >> sharing of the wealth it
is
> >> > producing, then that right must be
repossessed by the state on
>behalf
> >> >
of
> >> > the populace.
> >> >
>
>> > The AMI, driven by author and Director Stephen
Zarlenga, has
>developed
> >> > a
>
>> > blueprint for such a repossession exercise, aimed
specifically at
>the
> >> > worlds
>
>> > wealthiest (and most indebted) country. We are please
to reproduce
>
> >> > that
> >>
> blueprint:
> >> >
> >> > AMERICAN
MONETARY ACT
> >> >
> >> > An Act to
restore the Constitutional power to create Money to the
>
>> > Congress of the United States
> >>
>
> >> > Be it enacted by the Senate and House of
Representatives of the
>United
> >> > States of
America in Congress assembled,
> >> >
>
>> > SEC 1. SHORT TITLE
> >> >
>
>> > This Act may be cited as the American Monetary
Act
> >> >
> >> > SEC 2.
FINDINGS
> >> >
> >> > The Congress
finds that -
> >> >
> >> > (1) The
Federal Reserve Act of 1913 effectively ceded the
sovereign
>
> >> > power to create Money
delegated to Congress by the Constitution to
>the
>
>> > private financial industry.
> >> > (2)
This cession of Constitutional power has resulted in
a
>multitude of
> >> > monetary and financial
afflictions, including an uncontrollable
> >> >
national debt, excessive taxation of citizens, inflation of
the
> >> > currency, drastic increases in the cost of
public infrastructure
> >> > investments, excessive
un-and under-employment, and erosion of the
> >> >
ability of Congress to exercise its Constitutional
responsibilities
>to
> >> > provide for the
common defense and general welfare.
> >> > (3) The
issue of means of exchange by private financial
>institutions
as
> >> > interest-bearing debts should cease once
and for all.
> >> > (4) The power of Government to
create Money and spend or loan it
>into
> >> >
circulation as needed is similar but different in nature from
the
>power
> >> > to create and market
instruments of indebtedness; it eliminates the
>
>
>> > need to pay interest charges to financial institutions
and removes
> >> > their undue influence over public
policy.
> >> > (5) Direct disbursement of United
States Money can be readily and
> >> > easily
implemented, including replacement of Federal Reserve
Notes
>and
> >> > retirement of debt.
>
>> > (6) The Federal Reserve System shall be retained as a
central bank
>of
> >> > issue, a national fund
processing clearinghouse, and a fiscal agent
>for
>
>> > the Government and should be incorporated within
the
> >> US Treasury. It should no longer be utilized to
introduce liquidity
>into
> >> the currency system
through interest-bearing debts.
> >> > (7) Government
policy with regard to monetary supply should be
>based
on
> >> > the principle of furnishing sufficient
liquidity to support the
> >> > reasoned sustainable
expansion of the physical economy, providing
>for
>
>> > the common defense and general welfare of the United
States, and
>full
> >> > employment of the
nation's working population.
> >> >
> >>
>
> >> > TITLE I - DISBURSEMENT OF UNITED STATES
MONEY
> >> >
> >> > SEC. 101
AUTHORIZATION FOR DISBURSEMENT
> >> >
>
>> > Not later than 90 days after the effective date of
this section,
>all
> >> > United States
Government disbursements shall be denominated
in
>United
> >> > States Money, the nominal
unit being the U.S. Dollar.
> >> >
> >>
> SEC. 102 LEGAL TENDER
> >> >
> >>
> United States Money shall enter into general domestic
circulation
>as
> >> > full legal tender in
payment of all debts public and private.
> >>
>
> >> > SEC. 103 NEGATIVE FUND BALANCES
>
>> >
> >> > The Secretary of the Treasury
shall directly issue United States
>Money
> >>
> to account for any differences between Government
appropriations
> >> > authorized by Congress under
law and available Government receipts.
> >> >
>
>> > Note: The fact that Treasury will be able to make
disbursements
>based
> >> > on direct issuance
of United States Money for negative fund
>balances
>
>> > reflects Congress's Constitutional authority to "coin
Money",
>because
> >> > Congress will then have
the ability to adjust the amount of Money
>so
> >>
> created by regulating both appropriations as well as revenues
from
> >> > taxation and other sources.
>
>> > The focal point of power will be the House of
Representatives as
>the
> >> > initiator of
revenue bills. Restoring to Congress
its
>Constitutional
> >> > authority will shift
the ability to create Money and enter it into
> >> >
circulation from the private banking industry to our elected
>
>> > representatives, as the Constitution mandates.
>
>> >
> >> > SEC. 104 FORECASTING OF
DISBURSEMENT REQUIREMENTS
> >> >
> >>
> The Secretary shall:
> >> >
> >>
> (1) forecast disbursement requirements on a daily, monthly,
and
>annual
> >> > basis;
> >> >
(2) provide such forecasts to Congress and the public;
>
>> > (3) integrate forecasts with the Federal budget
process;
> >> > (4) maintain a sufficient research
capability to continuously and
> >> > effectively
assess the impact of disbursement of United
States
>Money
> >> > on all aspects of the
domestic and international economies;
> >> > (5)
report to Congress and the public regularly on the
economic
>impact
> >> > of disbursements of
United States Money and the status of the
>monetary
>
>> > supply.
> >> >
> >> >
SEC. 105 MONETARY CONTROL
> >> >
> >>
> (1) The Secretary shall pursue the policy that the supply of
money
>in
> >> > circulation should not become
inflationary nor deflationary in and
>of
> >> >
itself.
> >> > (2) Monetary supply targets shall be
established by a Monetary
>Control
> >> > Board
consisting of nine public members appointed for staggered
>
>> > six-year terms by the President with the advice and
consent of
>the
> >> > Senate and reporting for
administrative purposes to the Secretary.
> >> > (3)
Responsibility to regulate the monetary supply in reasonable
>
>> > accordance with targets established by the Monetary
Control Board
>shall
> >> > rest with the
Secretary of the Treasury.
> >> > (4) The Secretary
shall report to Congress any discrepancies
>between
>
>> > targets and supply in excess of two percent at the end
of each
>quarter.
> >> >
> >> >
SEC. 106. DISBURSEMENT IN LIEU OF BORROWING
> >>
>
> >> > (1) Disbursement of United States Money
under this Act shall be
>made in
> >> > lieu of
borrowing through Treasury instruments.
> >> > (2)
Such borrowing shall cease as of the date stated in Section
101
>of
> >> > this title, unless otherwise
authorized by Congress;
> >> > (3) Nothing in this
Act shall prevent Congress from exercising its
> >> >
Constitutional authority to borrow on the full faith and credit
of
>the
> >> > United States.
> >>
>
> >> > SEC. 107 ACCOUNTING
> >>
>
> >> > The Secretary shall account for the
disbursement of United States
>Money
> >> > and
of current fund balances through accounting reports
maintained
>and
> >> > published by the
Secretary and by departments and agencies of the
> >>
> Government. The General Accountability Office shall conduct
an
> >> > independent audit every second
year.
> >> >
> >> > TITLE II -
RETIREMENT OF INSTRUMENTS OF
> >> INDEBTEDNESS
>
>> >
> >> > SEC. 201 COMMENCEMENT OF
RETIREMENT
> >> >
> >> > Not later
than one year from the effective date of this
section,
>the
> >> > Secretary shall commence
to retire all outstanding instruments of
> >> >
indebtedness of the United States by payment in full of the
amount
>
> >> > legally due the bearer in
United States Money, as such amounts
>become
> >>
> due.
> >> >
> >> >
>
>> >
> >> > CONCLUDED NEXT WEEK
>
>> >
> >> >
> >>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> > Thank you for your ongoing support.
> >>
> As always, your feedback is welcome and
> >>
appreciated.
> >> > For all past issues the archive
link is:
> >> > www.electronz.cjb.net
>
>> > electronz@ihug.co.nz - Current Backup is:
>
>> electronz@dominc.net
> >> > Copyright
Electronz, 2006.
> >> >
> >> >
>
>>
>
>
>========================================================================
>====
>
>> >
> >> >
> >> > If you
wish not to receive any more email click
> >> the below
link.
> >> >
> >>
> >
http://www.dominc.net/etronz/r.asp?a=uc&e=wmklinck@shaw.ca
>
>> >
> >> > Powered by MailerFree -
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>>
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> >
> >
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Re: [socialcredit]
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