| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Replying to Jeff: Mancur Olsen | | Date: | Tuesday, May 2, 2006 15:26:13 (+1200) | | From: | W. McGunnigle <wmcgunn @.........nz>
|
Reply to William B.Ryan
Although there may be some truth in your initail
comment about non-western and Islamic banking systems, your example for
comparison about navigation is woefully mistaken. Not only is it incorrect,
it also denigrates the navigational ability of the people who colonised the
Pacific Islands long before "western navigators" entered the region. My
research, along with several other prominent antipodean historians,
indicates that Pacific Islanders were capable of ACCURATE long distance
navigation over thousands of kilometeres IN BOTH DIRECTIONS.
One example of such research is the book by Professor Kerry Howe of
Massey University New Zealand. Called "A Question of Origin", it is an
eminently readable book dealing with the arguments from where the Polynesian
originated and devotes an entire chapter to the methods whereby accurate
navigation across wide expanses of ocean were made using relatively
rudimentary equipment. I would also point out that Arabian, Indian and
Chinese merchant ships traded extensively through out the Indian and Western
Pacific Oceans long before Europeans even knew about the area. That task
required reasonably sophisticated navigation to ensure you arrived at your
destination.
I also point out that very accurate maps of those regions existed as
early as the 10th century. Maps that bear comparison with the Mercalli
projections of today. These were discovered in Constantinople (Istanbul) by
Portugese mariners in the 15th century and copies were stored in the great
Library of Lisbon. Unfortunately they were destroyed along with the Library
in the great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755. Recent historical research seems to
indicate that Columbus, (a portugese mariner) did not sail blindly across
the Atlantic, but made that initial journey based on information gleaned
from the previously mentioned maps. These facts undermine your postulation
that western nations had a monopoly in the arts of Charting, map making and
navigation. History also supports the argument that, during the "Dark Ages"
in Europe, flourishing and sophisticated civilisations not only existed in
China, India and the Arabian world, but were also responsible for
significant advances in Mathematics (invention of zero), Science, and
Technology. Navigation, a sub branch of mathemetics, was one of those areas.
As for the Islamic banking system being primitive may I respectfully
point out that Islamic banking is controlled by Islamic law. Usury is
illegal funds can be lent to an enterprise but include a sizeable risk
factor. Unlike western banks who can place companies in receiveship and then
have first chance to seize the lions share of that companies remaining
assetts to cover the "debt " to the bank, under Islamic law no one gets
preferential treatment. The bank takes the same "loss" as everyone else. I
don't know if this is "primitive" or not, but, to me at least, it certainly
contains a large element of "Natural Justice". No one attempting to bankrupt
someone else and cause a great deal of upset by that process should be
allowed benefit disproportionately from actions they have initiated.
Consequently Muslim banks are more reluctant to place people in receivership
in Muslim countries because of the way the law operates. They are also more
reluctant to "lend" finance on the most speculative ventures. I believe this
principle reflects Social Credit Philosophy more accurately than the present
International banking system.
May I again respectfully point out that if you are going to use historical
data to support an argument that data should be accurate, otherwise you cast
doubt upon your own argument. Your comments, with due respect, lack cohesion
and logical balance. I trust you will amplify them more fully, putting your
argument forwards in a more comprehensible manner.
respectfully yours
Bill McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: "William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 5:11 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] Replying to Jeff: Mancur Olsen
> In point of clarification, Jeff, the comments to which
> you were replying were mine, not Chris Cook's.
>
> In answer to your question, yes, I believe that
> "Islamic banking and other non-Western monetary
> systems are 'more crudely' or 'less' 'developed' than
> those of the Western world."
>
> It is not the only explanation but certainly a major
> explanation for the ascendancy of the West. And it is
> also a major explanation for its continued ascendancy.
>
> There are other technologies that first developed in
> the West that were significant.
>
> For example, the navigational technology that enabled
> Europeans to travel across the open ocean from point A
> to point B, then return to point A, then to return to
> point B--was possessed only by Europeans when Columbus
> "discovered" America. The technology is what made
> possible trade routes across the open ocean, without
> which they would have been impossible. Indeed, it is
> the reason we may justifiably say that Columbus in
> fact discovered America.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "The only remaining plausible explanation is that the
> great differences in the wealth of nations are mainly
> due to differences in the quality of their
> institutions and economic policies."
>
> Excerpted from a paper available on the Internet:-
> ------
>
> "From a political economy point of view, it has been
> forcefully argued by Mancur Olsen and Douglas North
> that it is the lack of efficient institutions that
> explains why so many countries remain poor, despite
> growth in the world economy. Without efficient
> institutions, agents can usually not produce public
> goods and the transactions costs in economic exchange
> can become detrimental to economic growth. Buying
> private protection to protect ones property rights is
> usually both expensive and an uncertain investment
> (North 1990; Olson 1996). To quote Mancur Olsen's last
> published article:
>
> '...the large differences in per capita income across
> countries cannot be explained by differences in access
> to the world's stock of productive knowledge or to its
> capital markets, by differences in the ratio of the
> population to land or natural resources, or by
> differences in the quality of marketable human capital
> or personal culture. Albeit at a high level of
> aggregation, this eliminates each of the factors of
> production as possible explanation of most of the
> international differences in per capita income. The
> only remaining plausible explanation is that the great
> differences in the wealth of nations are mainly due to
> differences in the quality of their institutions and
> economic policies'"
> -
>
>
> --- jeff mascornick <jjm4114@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Chris (and all):
> >
> > Is it not a socially constructed value
> > judgement to say that Islamic banking and other
> > non-Western monetary systems are "more crudely" or
> > "less" "developed" than those of the Western world?
> > - I find Graeme's comment that - if we give primacy
> > to the efficacy of the western monetary system it
> > does suggest that many "more crudely" or "less"
> > "developed" societies NATURALLY become phased out
> > (collatoral damage, as Graeme eloquently put it)
> > because they are not as efficient our own - to be
> > very interesting.
> > - Do you (Chris) believe this? Certainly you have
> > every right to believe this if you choose and you
> > certainly aren't alone - I simply wanted to clarify
> > this and to ask you to elaborate further on this
> > statement. (P.S. Believe me, I am not "picking a
> > fight" here at all - I'm interested to hear your
> > response [or anyone else who would like to]).
> >
> > Jeff
>
>
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