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capital Triumpho
RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
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Control of Policy MODERATO
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
RE: [socialcredit] Henry Ra
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: Neo-Georgism William
RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
ecology of knowled Triumpho
RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
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Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
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RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
Re: Neo-Georgism-- William
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
ecology of knowled Triumpho
Neo-Georgism Triumpho
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Neo-Georgism Triumpho
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
Forwarded from Kev William
Re: [socialcredit] keith wi
RE: 'Tendering" thomsonh
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
Re: [socialcredit] W. McGun
help! Triumpho
ecology of knoweld Triumpho
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Re: [socialcredit] Adavans
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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge
Date:Tuesday, June 6, 2006  08:22:53 (-0400)
From:Keith Wilde <keithwilde @.........ca>
In reply to:Message 4118 (written by Triumphofthepast)

Michael, I do hope that you will expand these comments into a response to the "call for papers". 
 
You have addressed the critical issue in pointing up the contrast between Knowledge Construct and Cultural Heritage. And the defects you have pointed to in the concept of knowledge as presented by Wojciechowski are of course the ones that appeared strange to me on first encountering them, which is why I emphasize them in the exposition.  I grew up believing that knowledge is something benign; there can hardly be too much of it and one should aspire to embracing as much of it as possible.  But as some American sage is reputed to have said, "It isn't ignorance that hurts so much as knowing so durned much that ain't so!"  Knowledge is unfortunately not limited to concepts that are truthful, beautiful and virtuous. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is a problem of constantly increasing magnitude. That is a reality, according to JAW, and I have never encountered an effective refutation.  A proudly devout and loyal Roman Catholic, JAW anchored his thinking about knowledge in the motifs of Eden and the Tower of Babel--that the aspiration to knowledge was an affront in the eyes of God, a sin for which humankind would suffer for having indulged.
 
In observing that problems created by knowledge call for government action to mitigate them, neither JAW nor I are making a prescriptive statement.  It is rather an assessment of the way things are and as such is subject to truth tests.  You say that Social Credit seeks to avoid these problems.  Yes, I have understood that, as an aspiration.  But where is the persuasive rationale?  It is nice to think of Cultural Inheritance as benign and beautiful, but can you deny that  negative elements in the KC are inevitably part of what each generation inherits? I suspect that you have misrepresented me in asserting that the JAW concept excludes considerations of "truthfulness, efficacy, or moral and aesthetic value" from "knowledge", but I haven't checked the text to confirm. If I have said that, I repent and affirm instead that knowledge is not confined to concepts that are truthful, effective, virtuous or beautiful. If the Social Credit concept of knowledge is so confined, then I submit that it is utopian in the pejorative sense of hopelessly unrealistic. 
 
Much of the discussion of Social Credit gives the impression that inheritors of the Douglas contribution are fighting the last war.  Martin Hattersley summed up the position recently in observing that the SC stance is that the problem of production has been solved.  The usual extension inferred from that opener is that the remaining problem is distribution.  It was a reasonble inference for the 1930s, but where have Social Credit thinkers been for the last half century?  Distribution is not the only remaining problem.  There is also the growing challenge of cleaning up after production (and distribution) and the especially daunting task of organizing the "leisure society".  These are the problems, characterized collectively as ecological, that have concerned a growing number of thinkers since World War II.  Wojciechowski extended the concept by noting that we humans not only need to recognize that we are an integral part of Nature, not its supreme masters, but also that in our efforts to engineer Nature to our liking we have created an equivalently ecological relationship, socially, as an inevitable consequence.  
 
"Deep" ecologists and their ilk are both distressed by and contemptuous of "economics".  Justifiably.  Does Social Credit provide a more satisfactory approach?  These are the big problems of our time, much more acute compared to the thirties than is income distribution.  If Social Crediters are truly interested in engaging contemporary issues (e.g. Al Gore's movie) then this call for papers is a good opportunity to test their ideas with some potential allies and careful critics.  
 
Keith 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:14 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge

I had a look at Keith's coauthored article on the ecology of knowledge.  It describes the Cultural Heritage under the term Knowledge Construct (KC).  And its thesis is that the KC is a vicious circle:  "It can and does create problems for which it cannot develop solutions. . . . The only way a formal system can solve the incommensurable problems that it inevitably creates is to develop a more complex system.  How can the global KC, that includes all human knowledge, create a system of greater complexity that includes itself in a more complex system."  For example, in Pictograph 11:  "The growing ability of individuals and groups to take effective actions calls forth a demand for governments to control them." 

This sort of direct approach of creating more and more legislation to fix more and more problems is just what Social Credit opposes.  Instead, we want to undercut all this and act indirectly from the root.  This is a way out of the vicious circle.

Wojciechowski appears to regard ever-increasing complexity as futile but at the same time inevitable.

A telling comment is that on Pictographs 3 and 5 the authors find it necessary to EXCLUDE "truthfulness, efficacy, or moral and aesthetic value of knowledge" from "knowledge."  In other words, no distinction is made between knowledge and pseudo-knowledge, between the true Cultural Heritage of useful knowledge and the proliferation of academic chatter.

It is obvious why he would want to eliminate these elements from consideration, but it seems to me that in doing so, he has stripped "knowledge" of all meaningful content. 

The authors do ask the question at the end, "Is there such a thing as 'sufficient knowledge'."  It is just those omitted criteria of "truthfulness, efficacy, or moral and aesthetic value" that would establish what is sufficient in any particular case.  And of course, knowledge that fails of these is not merely insufficient, its proliferation is actively destructive and generates the very vicious cycle that W. describes.

Michael 

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