| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge--to MH | | Date: | Sunday, June 11, 2006 17:40:14 (-0600) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 4164 (written by Keith Wilde) |
Keith and others -
How far are we pessimists about implementation of Social Credit, because we are
envisaging having to gain control of ever more integrated national governments
and banking systems, and institute a mechanism that it is very hard for the
average citizen to understand?
On the principle that "small is beautiful", I am currently helping a Social
Crediter in the Philippines, Eric Encina, bankroll a debt-free organic farming
project, supported by like minded persons willing to work there, to see how far
it is possible to go by simply avoiding the traps of our present debt and full
employment system, and getting back as far as possible to real wealth and Mother
Nature.
Perhaps it is possible to work from the ground up, rather than the top down -
which I think was always Douglas's idea. If you are familiar with Dee Hock,
author of "Birth of the Chaordic Age", it seems to me that he went quite some
distance in this direction by introducing the Visa system of exchange - one of
the largest and most influential systems now of exchange in the world. It is
interesting that, at the end of his book, he seems to think that all that his
system could have accomplished has not been enabled to come about. It still works
within the banking system, rather than for the people. But (at the price of
personal debt), it does give people a tax-free dividend that keeps our economy
moving. Where would today's economy be without it?
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Keith Wilde
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge--to MH
Thanks for commenting Martin.
Yes, I find it highly plausible that a Social Credit monetary system would
reduce the kinds of waste you mention. This seems to be especially so in the
case of warfare, judging by the conclusion of several historians that the power
of certain bankers and financial institutions originated with their demonstrated
ability to provide financing for princes who had war on their hands but
insufficient means to keep it going. And the planning, implementation and quality
control of production generally would very likely give more scope to "the
instinct of workmanship" if anxieties over rate of return were moderated.
Consumers would doubtless appreciate the higher quality of what they found on
merchants' shelves.
The prospects for implementing a Social Credit solution seem to be diminishing
as time passes, however. This is most obvious in the rapid increase of economic
integration among nations. The solution seems to be most readily applicable
within national boundaries that are not too porous. Finance drives the
globalization process, and the further it goes, the greater is the difficulty of
pulling it back. Is it as easy to apply the solution to the entire world as it
is to one nation?
Another thing that deters application, perhaps even applicability, is the
problem of knowledge proliferation. This is an idea that goes down very slowly
among people who have been accultured to believe that knowledge is a good thing.
And it is not an issue of "good" versus "bad" knowledge. The good stuff can have
bad consequences, even when applied to supposedly "good" purpose. This has not
gone unnoticed by some observers. Leafing through Wojciechowski's book yesterday
I found this:
On the occasion of the tenth anniversary of the foundation of the Club of
Rome, Aurelio Peccei...issued a solemn appeal to scientists to stop research for
50 years, or else humanity would be doomed. ...What Peccei clearly realized...is
the fact that knowledge is not always, nor automatically, harmoniously related to
humanity. ...In other words, the development of knowledge, at least of the
scientific type of knowledge, does not automatically make humans wiser. (p. 27)
Would Social Credit make it a rule that scientists and engineers were
forbidden to do research in the "leisure society"? After all, for many of our
generation, we have lived in the leisure society in the sense of having been
relieved of the necessity to do physical labor for our survival. Is it plausible
that no one will want to do research unless it is sponsored by a rent-seeking
financier? This need not deter application of Social Credit directly, but
retention of what many will perceive as unrealistic ideas about a leisure society
may diminish its saleability among otherwise sympathetic listeners.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin Hattersley
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge
Hi, Keith -
In connection with the economic effects of implementing a Social Credit
monetary system, I do believe that one of them will be to reduce the immense
amount of resources spent in our current world on effort that does no good to
anyone - wars and armaments being a prime example, and advertising, "planned
obsolescence" of products, being another. There's a lot of room for improving our
use of the world's resources in that direction.
Martin Hattersley
1970-10123-99 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA
Phone (780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: keith wilde
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Cc: Michael Caley
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge
OK Michael, I believe it is appropriate to infer from your comments that
we agree that Cultural Heritage and the Knowledge Construct are not the same
thing. The difference is that Cultural Heritage is purified by the elimination
of putative knowledge. And I agree that to impose that condition would change the
pictographs. I hope to ask the question directly of Wojciechowski, but I suspect
that he made a deliberate choice in not restricting the designation of knowledge
to ideas or creations that are truthful, beautiful and virtuous. It is the notion
that such a housecleaning of the noosphere could be successfully undertaken that
I call utopian.
By contrast, your description below of the necessary housecleaning to
allow benign human nature to shine through suggests that the primary obstacle is
the financial system. I would designate the financial system as part of the KC,
and even allow that it is an aspect of "social" capital, but I infer that you
would exclude it from Cultural Heritage?
Regardless, it is the Social Credit analysis of the financial system that
is of interest to me, as it relates to my much more lengthy immersion in issues
of population, resources and environment. I am anxious to have it represented in
the papers that the editor hopes to assemble in a dedicated issue of The
Trumpeter. I didn't need much persuasion to believe that the root of
contemporary problems lies in the monetary and financial system. The problematic
element in Social Credit analysis (to my limited understanding) concerns the
FAITH that sovereign consumers will choose benign products, production methods
and to curb personal waste if the system is corrected so that they can relax from
jobs anxiety and rely on their share of income from the Cultural Heritage. You
say I am wrong to say it is WE who have chosen to engineer the earth, because we
have lacked sovereign power. To a degree, yes, but it also seems that persons
bitten by the bug of engineering have their own visions of what to invent or
improve next, and the outcome of their individual efforts to exert power over
nature (from almost purely intellectual motivation in many cases) is often a
pleasant surprise to consumers who may employ it unwisely but selfishly with
collectively quite malignant effects. And then there are the merchants, like
Wal-Mart, who constantly titillate consumers with the prospect of more junk at
lower prices. What does Social Credit have to buttress faith in the wise and
modest consumer, and how does it compare to other studies of human behavior (and
human nature)?
That is the kind of stuff I am hoping for as reinforcement for my
assertion to engineers and philosophers (and economists) of the pessimistic
variety that they should focus on the financial system if they want to find an
effective leverage point.
Keith
Triumphofthepast@aol.com wrote:
I'm sorry, Keith, that I just can't possibly respond to this call for
papers. However, I want to continue this discussion with you.
First of all, in saying Wojciechowski concept of knowledge excludes
CONSIDERATIONS of "truthfulness, efficacy, or moral and aesthetic value," I am
saying the same thing you are. Most people think that knowledge means what is
truthful, otherwise it is not knowledge but ignorance. A better way to make the
point, then, would be to say that there is so much PUTATIVE knowledge that, as
you say, it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. For example, I was
very fortunate to discover Social Credit at all. With this way of putting it I
would agree, but it would change the pictographs.
Obviously, social crediters are keenly aware of the negative aspects of
our situation but reserve the term Cultural Heritage (not "Inheritance") for the
positive. For example, the idea that "money is wealth" is not an addition to our
Culture Heritage but, rather, a diminishment of it.
"To engineer Nature to OUR liking WE have created . . ." (Keith)
"We" have done no such thing, because "we" were never given the choice.
The statement assumes a true consumer-driven economy, but in absense of a
National Dividend, we do not have a consumer-driven economy. I think Keith's
concerns are implicitly included in the Douglas analysis, in that if you produce
with true EFFICIENCY and calibrate production to authentic expression of needs by
people, instead of sabotaging production to satisfy incentives set by Finance,
then we will live lightly on this planet. At the bottom of Social Credit is
FAITH in human nature. It is arrogant to say that human nature is the problem
and we will force it into a tolerable mold. Our duty is rather the more humble
one of clearing away the obstacles that choke human nature, so that it can have a
chance. If that is what Keith calls "utopian," I plead guilty.
Michael
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<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2>Keith and others -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2>How far are we pessimists about implementation of
Social Credit, because we are envisaging having to gain control of
ever more integrated national governments and banking systems, and institute a
mechanism that it is very hard for the average citizen to
understand?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2>On the principle that "small is beautiful", I am
currently helping a Social Crediter in the Philippines, Eric Encina, bankroll a
debt-free organic farming project, supported by like minded persons willing to
work there, to see how far it is possible to go by simply avoiding the traps of
our present debt and full employment system, and getting back as far as possible
to real wealth and Mother Nature.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2>Perhaps it is possible to work from the ground
up, rather than the top down - which I think was always Douglas's idea. If you
are familiar with Dee Hock, author of "Birth of the Chaordic Age", it seems to
me that he went quite some distance in this direction by introducing the Visa
system of exchange - one of the largest and most influential systems now of
exchange in the world. It is interesting that, at the end of his book, he seems
to think that all that his system could have accomplished has not been enabled
to come about. It still works within the banking system, rather than for the
people. But (at the price of personal debt), it does give people a tax-free
dividend that keeps our economy moving. Where would today's economy
be without it?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=keithwilde@sympatico.ca href="mailto:keithwilde@sympatico.ca">Keith
Wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, June 11, 2006 6:55 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] ecology of
knowledge--to MH</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks for commenting Martin. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Yes, I find it highly plausible that a Social
Credit monetary system would reduce the kinds of waste you mention. This
seems to be especially so in the case of warfare, judging by the conclusion of
several historians that the power of certain bankers and financial
institutions originated with their demonstrated ability to provide
financing for princes who had war on their hands but insufficient means to
keep it going. And the planning, implementation and quality control of
production generally would very likely give more scope to "the instinct of
workmanship" if anxieties over rate of return were moderated. Consumers
would doubtless appreciate the higher quality of what they found on merchants'
shelves.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The prospects for implementing a Social Credit
solution seem to be diminishing as time passes, however. This is
most obvious in the rapid increase of economic integration among
nations. The solution seems to be most readily applicable
within national boundaries that are not too porous. Finance drives the
globalization process, and the further it goes, the greater is the difficulty
of pulling it back. Is it as easy to apply the solution to the entire
world as it is to one nation?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another thing that deters application, perhaps
even applicability, is the problem of knowledge proliferation. This
is an idea that goes down very slowly among people who have been accultured to
believe that knowledge is a good thing. And it is not an issue of "good"
versus "bad" knowledge. The good stuff can have bad consequences,
even when applied to supposedly "good" purpose.</FONT> <FONT face=Arial
size=2> This has not gone unnoticed by some observers. Leafing through
Wojciechowski's book yesterday I found this:</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On the occasion of the tenth anniversary of the
foundation of the Club of Rome, Aurelio Peccei...issued a solemn appeal to
scientists to stop research for 50 years, or else humanity would be doomed.
...What Peccei clearly realized...is the fact that knowledge is not always,
nor automatically, harmoniously related to humanity. ...In other words, the
development of knowledge, at least of the scientific type of knowledge, does
not automatically make humans wiser. (p. 27)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Would Social Credit make it a rule that
scientists and engineers were forbidden to do research in the "leisure
society"? After all, for many of our generation, we have lived in the
leisure society in the sense of having been relieved of the necessity to do
physical labor for our survival. Is it plausible that no one will want
to do research unless it is sponsored by a rent-seeking financier? This
need not deter application of Social Credit directly, but retention of what
many will perceive as unrealistic ideas about a leisure society may
diminish its saleability among otherwise sympathetic listeners.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial size=2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">Martin Hattersley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, June 07, 2006 5:35
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] ecology of
knowledge</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT
face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2>Hi, Keith -</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2>In connection with the economic effects of
implementing a Social Credit monetary system, I do believe that one of them
will be to reduce the immense amount of resources spent in our current
world on effort that does no good to anyone - wars and armaments being a
prime example, and advertising, "planned obsolescence" of products, being
another. There's a lot of room for improving our use of the world's
resources in that direction. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Georgia size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Martin Hattersley<BR>1970-10123-99 St., <BR>EDMONTON AB CANADA<BR>Phone
(780)423-4081;Fax(780)425-5247<BR>e-mail: <A
href="mailto:hattersleyjm@interbaun.com">hattersleyjm@interbaun.com</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=kwilde@tc-biodiversity.org
href="mailto:kwilde@tc-biodiversity.org">keith wilde</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=socialcredit@elistas.com
href="mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com">socialcredit@elistas.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=shanshui@shaw.ca
href="mailto:shanshui@shaw.ca">Michael Caley</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:45
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [socialcredit] ecology
of knowledge</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>OK Michael, I believe it is appropriate to infer from your comments
that we agree that Cultural Heritage and the Knowledge Construct are not
the same thing. The difference is that Cultural Heritage is purified
by the elimination of <EM>putative</EM> knowledge. And I agree that
to impose that condition would change the pictographs. I hope to
ask the question directly of Wojciechowski, but I suspect that he made a
deliberate choice in not restricting the designation of knowledge to ideas
or creations that are truthful, beautiful and virtuous. It is the
notion that such a housecleaning of the noosphere could be successfully
undertaken that I call utopian. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>By contrast, your description below of the necessary housecleaning to
allow benign human nature to shine through suggests that the primary
obstacle is the financial system. I would designate the
financial system as part of the KC, and even allow that it is an aspect of
"social" capital, but I infer that you would exclude it from Cultural
Heritage? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regardless, it is the Social Credit analysis of the financial system
that is of interest to me, as it relates to my much more lengthy immersion
in issues of population, resources and environment. I am anxious to
have it represented in the papers that the editor hopes to assemble in a
dedicated issue of <EM>The Trumpeter</EM>. I didn't need much
persuasion to believe that the root of contemporary problems lies in the
monetary and financial system. The problematic element in Social
Credit analysis (to my limited understanding) concerns the FAITH that
sovereign consumers will choose benign products, production methods and to
curb personal waste if the system is corrected so that they can relax from
jobs anxiety and rely on their share of income from the Cultural
Heritage. You say I am wrong to say it is WE who have chosen to
engineer the earth, because we have lacked sovereign power. To a degree,
yes, but it also seems that persons bitten by the bug of engineering have
their own visions of what to invent or improve next, and the outcome of
their individual efforts to exert power over nature (from almost purely
intellectual motivation in many cases) is often a pleasant surprise to
consumers who may employ it unwisely but selfishly with collectively quite
malignant effects. And then there are the merchants, like Wal-Mart,
who constantly titillate consumers with the prospect of more junk at lower
prices. What does Social Credit have to buttress faith in the
wise and modest consumer, and how does it compare to other studies of
human behavior (and human nature)?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That is the kind of stuff I am hoping for as reinforcement for my
assertion to engineers and philosophers (and economists) of the
pessimistic variety that they should focus on the financial system if they
want to find an effective leverage point.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Keith<BR><BR><B><I>Triumphofthepast@aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px
solid"><FONT
face=arial,helvetica><FONT lang=0 face="Goudy Old Style" size=3
PTSIZE="12" FAMILY="SERIF">I'm sorry, Keith, that I just can't possibly
respond to this call for papers. However, I want to continue this
discussion with you.<BR><BR>First of all, in saying Wojciechowski
concept of knowledge excludes CONSIDERATIONS of "truthfulness, efficacy,
or moral and aesthetic value," I am saying the same thing you are.
Most people think that knowledge means what is truthful, otherwise it is
not knowledge but ignorance. A better way to make the point, then,
would be to say that there is so much PUTATIVE knowledge that, as you
say, it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. For example,
I was very fortunate to discover Social Credit at all. With this
way of putting it I would agree, but it would change the
pictographs.<BR><BR>Obviously, social crediters are keenly aware of the
negative aspects of our situation but reserve the term Cultural Heritage
(not "Inheritance") for the positive. For example, the idea that
"money is wealth" is not an addition to our Culture Heritage but,
rather, a diminishment of it.<BR><BR>"To engineer Nature to OUR liking
WE have created . . ." (Keith)<BR><BR>"We" have done no such thing,
because "we" were never given the choice. The statement assumes a
true consumer-driven economy, but in absense of a National Dividend, we
do not have a consumer-driven economy. I think Keith's concerns
are implicitly included in the Douglas analysis, in that if you produce
with true EFFICIENCY and calibrate production to authentic expression of
needs by people, instead of sabotaging production to satisfy incentives
set by Finance, then we will live lightly on this planet. At the
bottom of Social Credit is FAITH in human nature. It is arrogant
to say that human nature is the problem and we will force it into a
tolerable mold. Our duty is rather the more humble one of clearing
away the obstacles that choke human nature, so that it can have a
chance. If that is what Keith calls "utopian," I plead
guilty.<BR><BR>Michael</FONT>
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09/06/2006<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 09/06/2006
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Re: [socialcredit]
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