| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Re: the theorem CORRECTION | | Date: | Tuesday, January 4, 2005 22:15:43 (+0000) | | From: | Timothy Carpenter <timbeau_hk @........uk>
|
I do see the point, Bill, a delay can be very very short, overnight even.
Now can we move forward?
Tim
On 4/1/05 9:22 pm, "William B. Ryan" <w_b_ryan@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "Even if you add a dam to the river your
> model presumes a delay before the flow is
> available to be discharged - an account
> balance can be accessed as soon as the funds
> are cleared. The delay is a matter of choice
> and circumstance, not function."
> --------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> [REPLY] You persist in refusing to see the
> point. Unless you can see it, it will be
> impossible to continue. It is irrelevant
> whether it is "available to be discharged."
> The point is that it has not yet discharged.
> Otherwise, the reservoir would be empty.
> Whenever it is discharged, no matter at what
> rate, a positive balance represents
> something that was inputted that was delayed
> before it was outputted. Try thinking out
> of the box, Tim.
> -
>
>
>
>
> --- Timothy Carpenter <timbeau_hk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Dear Bill,
>>
>> On 1/1/05 6:42 pm, "william_b_ryan@yahoo.com"
>> <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Banks do not lend out deposits. I repeat, banks do
>>> not lend out deposits. Loans are created using
>> new
>>> credit money and when repaid the credit money is
>>> destroyed.
>>> ----------------------
>>> ------------------------
>>> [REPLY] That's fine, but how do you reconcile
>> this
>>> most recent statement of yours with the utterly
>>> contradictory one from the day before?
>>>
>>
>> It is not contradictory to anyone but a pedant. The
>> money is put to work if
>> in a bank and approx 10x credit is created and thus
>> potentially in the hands
>> of final consumers. As long as that money is in the
>> account it can be used
>> to permit credit loans, paid back and so allowing
>> the bank to create new
>> credit loans until the cash deposit is withdrawn.
>> (thus the repayments on
>> balance do not remove money from circulation, but
>> the withdrawal of the
>> account balance certainly does!). Thus you can
>> really only say that money is
>> not in the hands of final consumers when it is
>> stuffed in a drawer in the
>> form of cash.
>>
>>
>>
>>> "I do agree with the assertion that dollars in
>>> company account balances are not in the hands of
>>> final consumers. [correction follows] provided
>> that
>>> balance is held in notes in a drawer and not in a
>>> bank (otherwise the money may well be put to work
>> and
>>> lent to someone...)"
>>>
>>> Perhaps you will explain how "put to work and
>> lent"
>>> means something other than deposits are lent.
>>> -
>>>
>>> As to river v. reservoir, is it impossible for you
>> to
>>> see that your reservoir is morphologically
>> equivalent
>>> to a river with dam and floodgate? A river is a
>>> reservoir that is in continuous flow, whereas a
>>> reservoir could be merely a body of water just
>>> sitting there. That is to say, it could be
>>> dynamically dead.
>>>
>>
>> Even if you add a dam to the river your model
>> presumes a delay before the
>> flow is available to be discharged - an account
>> balance can be accessed as
>> soon as the funds are cleared. The delay is a matter
>> of choice and
>> circumstance, not function. Many companies begin
>> life like this (in debt and
>> hand-to-mouth) and many companies do not keep cash
>> lying around but put it
>> to work offsetting loans or earning interest via
>> various securities.
>>
>>> The thing about account balances is, yes, the rate
>>> being outputted can transiently exceed the rate
>> being
>>> inputted during the period of depletion. That is
>>> indeed what happens during credit contractions.
>> But
>>> at the point of depletion the rate being outputted
>>> cannot exceed the rate being inputted. During the
>>> period of replenishment the rate being inputted
>> will
>>> always exceed the rate being outputted. It is
>> also
>>> true that nothing will output before it has
>> inputted;
>>> as a matter of sequence the output will always lag
>>> the input. So in concept the "account balance" is
>> a
>>> delay component. Don't get too concerned about
>> the
>>> details of its internal operation. Better to just
>>> think of it as a "black box" that is a delay
>>> component in a block diagram for now. It is not
>>> necessary to think about the details of rivers and
>>> reservoirs, since they seem to have confused you.
>>
>> Or maybe your use of them is imprecise? Your river
>> needs additions to turn
>> it effectively into a reservoir.
>>
>>> We
>>> can go into the details later. Right now, all I
>> want
>>> is for you to get A+B in broad concept, if you are
>>> willing. I'm not sure you are.
>>>
>>
>> I am willing.
>>
>>> And Tim, we are talking about models - models,
>> which
>>> necessarily involve simplifications. Models don't
>>> and can't prove or disprove anything. They can
>> never
>>> prove anything. They are merely aids to
>>> understanding, heuristic tools.
>>>
>> I totally agree with simplification, but there is a
>> level beyond
>> simplification which becomes simplistic (i.e. Too
>> simple). A river with
>> fixed or always some delay is one such case. I am
>> very aware of the use of
>> models as I have spend most of my life working in
>> abstract and time-based
>> models.
>>
>>> At this moment we are not trying to prove A+B, but
>>> understand it. But you seem to be intent on
>>> disproving it, which certainly you cannot do until
>>> you understand it.
>>
>> I am not intent on disproving but will not be swept
>> along the river like a
>> dead thing ?.
>>
>>>
>>> Whether or not we are able to proceed is therefore
>>> entirely up to you.
>>> -
>>>
>>> Assuming you are, I will expect you to get back to
>> me
>>> on what you think Say's Law means, from Say's own
>>> words, http://www.geocities.com/socredus/say.txt
>>> put into your own words. That's your homework
>>> assignment. Forget about "costs" and "point of
>>> retail" for now. I'll define them later. They
>> are
>>> from my paraphrase. I want you to tell me what
>> you
>>> think Say's Law means. I want your paraphrase.
>>>
>>> Please do that so we might move on.
>>> -
>>>
>>
>> This is my first take:
>>
>> SAY'S:
>>
>> The first part talks of producers claiming that more
>> production is a symptom
>> of more demand. It also states that even if
>> something of value is produced
>> it is not enough, what is needed is the ability and
>> capacity to purchase it
>> and that capacity comes about from the creation of
>> earlier products and
>> services. It expresses the demand-driven market
>> view.
>>
>> The second part explains that it is the ability,
>> capacity or opportunity for
>> people to sell something of value that gives them
>> the ability to purchase
>> something else (including "your" something else!)
>> using money. Without
>> available money the sale does not occur, i.e.
>> without the previous sale the
>> next sale does not occur. Thus money is the means
>> and the want of it
>> prevents a sale. Money is meaningless except as an
>> expression of past
>> production and value - it is a means to transfer the
>> value of your
>> customers' industry through to you and on to others
>> you buy from, so it
>> states that production is the true wealth, not money
>> per se.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
>
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