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RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
ecology of knowled Triumpho
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Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
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Fwd: David Korten: Rex Teag
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Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
RE: [socialcredit] thomsonh
money as generaliz MODERATO
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statistics William
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Re: [socialcredit] Rex Teag
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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge
Date:Friday, June 23, 2006  19:24:14 (-0400)
From:Keith Wilde <keithwilde @.........ca>
In reply to:Message 4198 (written by Wallace M. Klinck)

Thanks for this thoughtful commentary, Wally. 
 
As my primary reaction, to you and others, I should like to re-affirm (if it was not clear at the outset) that I introduced this subject because I wanted to know how the problems of knowledge perceived by Wojchiechowski would be resolved by the principal policy instruments proposed by Social Credit.  Part of my interest in getting responses to that question is to use the rationale and evidence marshalled by Douglas interpreters to persuade other associates, who gather to bemoan the state of the world, that monetary and financial institutions are the key domain where they should be focusing their attention if they want to use their brainpower to real effect.  I am looking to participants in this discussion for assistance in making the case for that approach.  Since at least one economist in that other group has asserted that money is neutral and has no bearing on the real issues, I have to overcome that perception before announcing that "Social Credit is the solution you have all been waiting for!"  And I am a pretty sure you all understand that situation.
 
I have a parallel problem here, it seems, in getting agreement that knowledge is in fact a problem.  Michael speaks of "random information" and "putative knowledge", which Wally implicitly contrasts to "real" knowledge.  There is an empirical question of whether "knowledge" is truly causing problems, and we could spend some time discussing evidence pro and con.  I will myself offer a couple of examples in other posts.  But that exploration would inevitably entail the question of "what is real knowledge", which has really been put on the table already.  The empirical question is mainly a matter of looking at conditions as they exist in our time, and as they have evolved since the end of Major Douglas' active career.  The issue of what is real knowledge is of a different kind and should be addressed separately, so as to keep our comunications of manageable length and cogency. 
 
Before signing off on this one, I have a request for Wally: that he expand slightly on the last sentence of his commentary, about the metaphysical and philosophical nature of society.
 
Keith
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 3:33 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge

Agreed, in general.  Douglas defined genuine democracy as the right to contract out of any association or activity if the latter appears not to be delivering desired results.  The right to contract out confers the power to atrophy a function which is deemed unsatifactory in terms of individual satisfaction.  When Douglas averred that political democracy without economic democracy was incapable of delivering desirable results and even dangerous, he did not advocate the elimination of political democracy but pointed out that without its essential counterpart, i.e., economic democracy, it was incapable of fulfilling its proper function.  Nor was Douglas an anarchist.  Indeed, he did not recommend abolishing the rule of law, but rather ensuring that it conformed as closely as possible to natural law, i.e., the "Canon."   Law should be grounded in realism rather that abstract idealism.  He envisioned, nevertheless, a benign social and financial/economic order in which the requirement for formal law would be minimized.  The core basis of such an order was to be absolute economic security for all citizens having a growing cultural awareness of essential moral principles, particularly of (or compatible with) Christian origin, and organically functioning within those principles. 
 
Douglas said that we could not know what kind of civilization might unfold under these conditions but that he firmly believed that only under such conditions could that new civilization emerge and flourish in desirable ways.
 
Social Credit would release citizens into a condition of economic and personal independence wherein they might freely engage in relationships and activities of their own free choice.  Privately, with increasing leisure, they could more readily follow  their own interests free from penalty of external sanctions.  Not only could they be exercising free choice as consumers in giving commands to the producing economy reflecting their real choice concerning goods and services.  The independence of income conferred upon citizens would release them from engaging in any association, relationship or activity of which they disapproved for whatever reason.  Thus, not only in regard to consumption patterns but also in production policy the citizen would be greatly empowered.  Beholden to, and dependent upon no one, the consumer citizen would become the final arbiter of production policy from the standpoints of both production and consumption.  How many people would be induced, or coerced, to engage in that greatest of destructive evils which we call war if refusing to do so involved no threat to their economic security or political freedoms?  Douglas put forward the goal of "immanent sovereignty" as a desirable end for individual persons.
 
As to the proliferation of "knowledge", surely a central mark of civilization is an insatiable and honest curiosity about the natural and social environment.  But in a Social Credit dispensation, substantially relieved from expanding, superflous and mischievous bureacratic intervention--imposed in a futile effort to solve worsening and proliferating problems deriving largely from a defective financial regime--citizens would be free to seek "real" knowledge to their eternal satisfaction--and as a great and marvellous contribution to the evermore enabling accumulated Cultural Heritage of mankind.
 
The sceptic, relativist and/or sophist might scorn the notion of morality and ethics--but only with a refined awareness of these factors can mankind beneficially realize the potential for good which is inherent in increased knowledge and application of it.  That is why Social Credit emphasizes the importance of the metaphysical or philosophical nature of society--from which policy derives.
 
Sincerely
Wally
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] ecology of knowledge

I want to add my strong second to Jim's statement about leisure and freedom.

I'm sorry I do not have time to respond to Keith's call for papers, therefore I am not able to give more than my impressions.  My impression is Keith has it backwards.  Instead of thinking of the expansion of random information (better word than "knowledge") being inevitable and the services sector usefully expanding to interpret it for us, think of tthe expansion of information and the services sector as symptomatic of the compulsive growth and waste that are endemic to our financial system.  Labor displacement combined with consumer choice means that whole sectors of information and service can be jettisoned as in fact useless spinning of wheels.  If explosion of information and services were not financed, it would not be.  And in an economy whose sole purpose was to serve individuals, it would not be financed.

Michael

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