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Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
The Higher Learnin Keith Wi
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
From The New Age MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
These Present Disc MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
The Control of Pro MODERATO
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Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
The Monopoly of Cr MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
"What is Capitalis Wallace
A Mechanical View MODERATO
A+B as I C Jim
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
The Delusion of Su MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
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Major Douglas repl MODERATO
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The Mechanism of C MODERATO
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Re: [socialcredit] Jim
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Messiah, Major, Mo MODERATO
The Question of Ex MODERATO
Unemployment and W MODERATO
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A Secret Society, MODERATO
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Subject:RE: [socialcredit] A+B as I C
Date:Thursday, September 21, 2006  22:05:28 (+0000)
From:John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
In reply to:Message 4280 (written by Jim)

Obviously, Douglas made an error, not in the example of one industry, but in general, in the case of raw materials, which (apart from the income discrepancy in primary industry) are income for those producing. The rest, savings etc. or in modern terms, depreciation allowances, equally obviously are a cause. 

But in scientific terms, reinventing the hypothesis and its possible causes is simply a waste of time.  As you say, testing it scientifically against reality is logical, and in this case shows the A+B model as superior to any other.

And when ever did economists test hypotheses by any means?  They simply call them "laws" straight away in most cases.  Who, for example, tested the idea that the great slump was caused by sunspots?  I know of no test against subsequent sunspot cycles.  I'm sure it would turn out like the similar one relating to wolves etc. in biology.  Next phase as out of step as the first was in.

Regards.     John R.


From: Jim <jschroeder@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: [socialcredit] A+B as I C
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:25:08 -0600

I wanted to give a brief synopsis of A+B as I see it.
 
Martin mentions that the "cost" of capital production appears in consumer prices twice, because it shows up in the cost of consumer goods now, as the money that is distributed for the capital production is absorbed by businesses operating on the laws of supply and demand, and it appears again when the consumer goods the capital goods produce pass the cost of the capital goods onto the consumer in order to recoup the money they invested in the production of the capital goods.
 
Douglas said, "Where any payment in money appears twice or more in series production) then the ultimate price of the product is increased by the amount of that payment
multiplied by the number of times of its appearance)
without any equivalent increase of purchasing power."  (The Monopoly of Credit) 
 
This can also happen from re-investment of savings, as the money that was debited to the cost of goods for one production cycle is re-invested and shows up in the cost of goods of another.
 
Bill likes to point to the fact that labour displacement, or the use of technology to increase the productivity of labour, causes B to rise relative to A, and this means that the gap between income and prices is ever increasing.  The result of this is that ever increasing capital production, or ever increasing exports over imports, is necessary to bridge the gap.
 
I think alot of opponents to the A+B theorem do not like the way Douglas approached the problem, and I must say that I don't think that the firm Douglas used in his examples are a "statistical firm", nor do I think he started with a macro-economy.  Douglas was an engineer and a scientist, so like a scientist, he took an observation, derived a hypothesis, and tested it.  Economists derive a theoretical model first, and then test it (more of an Aristotilean approach).  Douglas noticed that in the firm he was working the expenditures on wages, salaries and dividends during any period of time were always less than the total costs for the company in the same time period.  He then checked to see if this was true for all firms, and found that only in cases where the firm was going out of business was it not true, so he concluded that if it was true for all firms not going out of business, it must be true for the economy as a whole.  In other words, he worked from the firm to the macro, all the while using a scientific approach to the problem.
 
The criticism of Douglas is that the B payments to other firms are income for other firms, and this is where the error in their thinking occurs.  It can only be income if it is distributed as an A payment, so even if one firm's B payment goes to another firm, only the portion that the firm distributes in wages, salaries, and dividends is income, which of course comprise it's A payments.  There is money which is "hung up" in the productive system because it is going to cancel costs from previous accounting cycles.  I believe the confusion results from the belief that money "circulates" as opposed to "cycles", and  has two "directions".
 
I will end my thoughts here, because they are long enough for now.
 
Any comments?
 
Take care,
 
Jim

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