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Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
The Higher Learnin Keith Wi
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: [socialcredit] Keith Wi
From The New Age MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
These Present Disc MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
The Control of Pro MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
The Monopoly of Cr MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
"What is Capitalis Wallace
A Mechanical View MODERATO
A+B as I C Jim
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
The Delusion of Su MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Major Douglas repl MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
The Mechanism of C MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] William
Re: [socialcredit] William
Re: [socialcredit] william_
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Joe Thom
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: [socialcredit] Joe Thom
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] William
Messiah, Major, Mo MODERATO
The Question of Ex MODERATO
Unemployment and W MODERATO
RE: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] William
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: [socialcredit] John G R
Re: [socialcredit] William
Re: [socialcredit] William
A Secret Society, MODERATO
Re: [socialcredit] Martin H
Re: [socialcredit] Peter Ha
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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] A+B as I C
Date:Monday, September 25, 2006  15:32:05 (+1200)
From:William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn @.........nz>
In reply to:Message 4287 (written by John G Rawson)

Supporting J.Rawson. It is a popular misconception that scientific "proofs" are absolute. A good scientist accepts the hypothesis that "best fits" the available data. There is no question of rejecting data simply because it does not suit a particular hypothesis. All data is accepted as absolute provided that the results are duplicable under standard experimental conditions. Theories fit the data not the reverse. My study of orthodox economists and economic theory has convinced me that one explanation of their approach states it is fundamentally flawed because they always appear to want to find the explanation before studying the relevant data, and then attempt to fit the data to their theory. A second explanation is that they DO understand how economics really works but don't want anyone else to understand it, and therefore deliberately produce economic fallacies to confuse everyone. Tragically the management of the world economy is in the hands of this group of "experts". It must be assumed therefore that we are at the mercy of cretinously incompetent financial managers or utterly ruthless financial manipulators. You can take your pick. I believe there is a case for a combination of both.
  Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] A+B as I C

Nothing is ever "proved" in science.  Something can be disproved, as can the orthodox economic theories opposed to Douglas.  A concept in science is taken as the "best explanation" subject ot modification or even downright disproval in the light of new discovery.  And never does a good scientist tamper with data to try to fit his theories, as seems to happen regularly in economics.  Take the various descriptions of money (M0, M1, M2,.....).

Regards.    JR



 




John R.

From: "Peter Haines" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] A+B as I C
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2006 06:15:37 +1200

I agree with Jim.
 
If someone has made a finding by examining certain material I thought that it was the scientific thing to do if one disagreed to then examine the same material themselves and 'prove' a different finding if they did so do.
Interesting no one has done that.  An easy thing for certain people to do and would have back before 1930, but to do so and prove Douglas right isnt likely to happen is it?  This should be our reply, not trip over ourselves trying to convince sceptics.  The theorem is simple and intellectually solid as a rock and can only be challenged empirically, so let them make the same test as Douglas and come back when they have.
 
I like the 'hung up' factor.  I suspect it has a far bigger role ( as 'time') in the need for new money from a source ( borrowed) outside of industry to keep the system going.
Peter H
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:25 AM
Subject: [socialcredit] A+B as I C

I wanted to give a brief synopsis of A+B as I see it.
 
Martin mentions that the "cost" of capital production appears in consumer prices twice, because it shows up in the cost of consumer goods now, as the money that is distributed for the capital production is absorbed by businesses operating on the laws of supply and demand, and it appears again when the consumer goods the capital goods produce pass the cost of the capital goods onto the consumer in order to recoup the money they invested in the production of the capital goods.
 
Douglas said, "Where any payment in money appears twice or more in series production) then the ultimate price of the product is increased by the amount of that payment
multiplied by the number of times of its appearance)
without any equivalent increase of purchasing power."  (The Monopoly of Credit) 
 
This can also happen from re-investment of savings, as the money that was debited to the cost of goods for one production cycle is re-invested and shows up in the cost of goods of another.
 
Bill likes to point to the fact that labour displacement, or the use of technology to increase the productivity of labour, causes B to rise relative to A, and this means that the gap between income and prices is ever increasing.  The result of this is that ever increasing capital production, or ever increasing exports over imports, is necessary to bridge the gap.
 
I think alot of opponents to the A+B theorem do not like the way Douglas approached the problem, and I must say that I don't think that the firm Douglas used in his examples are a "statistical firm", nor do I think he started with a macro-economy.  Douglas was an engineer and a scientist, so like a scientist, he took an observation, derived a hypothesis, and tested it.  Economists derive a theoretical model first, and then test it (more of an Aristotilean approach).  Douglas noticed that in the firm he was working the expenditures on wages, salaries and dividends during any period of time were always less than the total costs for the company in the same time period.  He then checked to see if this was true for all firms, and found that only in cases where the firm was going out of business was it not true, so he concluded that if it was true for all firms not going out of business, it must be true for the economy as a whole.  In other words, he worked from the firm to the macro, all the while using a scientific approach to the problem.
 
The criticism of Douglas is that the B payments to other firms are income for other firms, and this is where the error in their thinking occurs.  It can only be income if it is distributed as an A payment, so even if one firm's B payment goes to another firm, only the portion that the firm distributes in wages, salaries, and dividends is income, which of course comprise it's A payments.  There is money which is "hung up" in the productive system because it is going to cancel costs from previous accounting cycles.  I believe the confusion results from the belief that money "circulates" as opposed to "cycles", and  has two "directions".
 
I will end my thoughts here, because they are long enough for now.
 
Any comments?
 
Take care,
 
Jim

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