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Hi Keith
Thanks
for that clarification. Your analogy of temperature however does express the
problem present in using different currency units for trade. The USA still
expresses temperatures in degress Farenheit despite the fact that the rest of
the world has standardised temperatures in degress Celsius. These two
temperature scales are radically different in both interval distance and
starting point. I believe the same could be applied to international financial
transactions. Some currencies like the pound Sterling and the US dollar are
pegged at set rates to one another. These are used as reserve currencies, but
all others appear to be set according to "market rates", a neat euphemism for
saying a free for all designed to allow trading in money alone to be
"profitable". Would you agree? I also believe that this unfettered trading in
"money" is responsible for the ill distribution of the control of the world's
"wealth" in terms of resources exploited. Money trading destablises a nations
ability to trade efficiently for the benefit of its own people.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:17
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Economic
Democracy
Yes, Bill, I noticed that lapse after I had hit
the send button. What I had in mind in responding to Joe and Martin is that
discussions of money often have an archaic flavor because language has not
evolved in step with the techniques used to facilitate exchange of goods and
claims to proprietary interest. The word "money" is therefore used
sometimes where the context implies a restriction
to coinage. This is especially the case with "gold bugs" to
whom "constitutional money" is restricted in meaning to gold and
silver. My point was that fiat money and bank credit instruments
had evolved by the turn of the 20th century to the point where the power
of Congress to regulate quite possibly did warrant an innovational
institution. As you imply, the role of money these days is mostly
confined to a unit of measurement, like the degrees on a
thermometer.
Keith
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:02
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Economic
Democracy
Hi Keith
Thank you for that clarification of the US constitution with respect to the
coinage and control of the means of commercial transaction in the USA and
its relationship to Congress. How does this relate to your final comment
that:- "Credit may be expressed in terms of the operating monetary units but
is not identical to money"? It seems to me that the vast bulk of financial
transactions today are in terms of a credit/debit relationships. It appears
that the actual existence of coinage has become basically irelevant now i.e.
there is now no absolute comparison in terms of an independant weight of
coinage eg metal. This being the case there can be no direct comparison
between currencies. Indeed it is financial anarchy. Is not this the case in
International finance today, where currency values are decided by the whims
and fancies of the international banking community without reference to
soverign governments?
Bill McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 1:24
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Economic
Democracy
Powers of Congress in the U.S.
Constitution:
Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and
Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general
Welfare of the United States; but all Duties,
Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United
States;
To regulate Commerce with
foreign Nations, and among the several States, and
with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization,
and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United
States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of
foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting
the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful
Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive
Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme
Court;
To define and punish
Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and
Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation
of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation
of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to
execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel
Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia,
and for governing such Part of them as may be
employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States
respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and
the Authority of training the Militia according to
the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive
Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten
Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance
of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places
purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same
shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and
other needful Buildings; — And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and
proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other
Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States,
or in any Department or Officer thereof.
Following Joe's comment/question, money seems to
have meant coinage of the precious metals at that time, the term
applying neither to paper currency or to credit. Thus the Federal
Reserve Act (of 1913) was consistent with the general provision that
Congress should make laws relevant to levying taxes, borrowing money,
coining money and regulating its value. Credit may be
expressed in terms of the monetary unit but it is not identical
with money--published money magnitudes to the contrary notwithstanding.
Keith Wilde
Richard Cook
wrote:
Congress regulated the value of silver vs. gold at a ratio
of 12 to 1.
From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Economic Democracy
Date: Tue, 20
Mar 2007 19:52:30 -0500
How would Congress "regulate the value
thereof"? Considering the era in
which this was written,
could it be that this simply refers to Congress's
ability to
determine what the denominations of US coinage will be, and to
set
standards for the minting of those coins, i.e., how much gold, silver,
etc. will be used in each particular coin?
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hattersley"
<hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 1:14 PM
Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Economic Democracy
> Note that
Congress's power to "coin money and regulate the value thereof"
(I
> quote the words from memory) is something written into the
U.S.
> Constitution. The whole Federal Reserve system from that
viewpoint is
quite
> unnecessary.
>
> Martin
Hattersley
> 5929 - 189 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M
2J1
>
> e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca
>
>
----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Cook" <rickycook21@hotmail.com>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 9:09 PM
> Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Economic Democracy
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > I totally agree with Mr.
McGunnigle's points about a separate funding
> > source
within the U.S. government. Excellent expression of something
often
> > overlooked. I am trying to address it in the
book I'm working on.
> >
> > Richard Cook
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> >>From: "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
> >>Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >>To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> >>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Economic Democracy
> >>Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 12:57:07 +1200
>
>>
> >>Hi everyone
>
>>
I have watched with curiosity the various arguments
> >>
being forwarded on this topic. While my comments on this could be
> >> offensive to many of our contributors particularly
some of those from
the
> >> North American continent
surely the easiest method of bringing the
> >> banking
system under direct treasury control is to have a treasury
>
>> controlled reserve bank that would provide local councils and
even
> >> government departments with the same services
as the commercial sector
> >> but charging interest rates
substancially less than the commercial
> >> sector.
Infrastructural maintenance and developments would be a
fraction
> >> of their present costings because that bank would
only need to charge
> >> interest rates sufficiently
large to cover administration costs. It
would
> >> be
restricted to those functions but since the commercial banking
sector
> >> has a substancial amount of its trade
tied up in those departments they
> >> would have to
lower their interest rates to be competitive. Admittedly
>
>> this would be a very heavy club to wield at the banking
system, but we
> >> are talking about a monetary system
that is totally inadequate for
modern
> >> uses and
too vunerable to the whims and fancies of private individuals
>
>> owning the commercial banking to be allowed to continue as
is. Quite
> >> simply the present financial system is not
creating sufficient
debt-free
> >> funding to ensure
proper exploitation of the world's resources for the
> >>
benefit of all. The early fathers of the USA emphasised that the
issuing
> >> and maintenance of the money supply was
the perogative of the
government
> >> i.e. treasury.
It is only since that perogative was usurped by the
> >>
passing of the Reserve Bank act (1917) allowing a private organisation
to
> >> control and issue its money supply that the
USA has moved from being a
> >> creditor nation to the
most indebted nation in the world. The vast bulk
> >> of
US debt is to the Federal Reserve as a direct result of its position
> >> as the monetary controller of the US economy. I
believe all the
arguments
> >> forwarded by our
correspondents seem to be overlooking this basic
axiom.
>
>> Until the fundamentals are cured all other arguments become
irrelevant.
> >> Mechnisms controlling interest rates
will always be available, but we
> >> need the WILL
to change the way they are operated before the present
>
>> financial system will begin to operate for the advantage of
all. Sadly,
> >> predominantly, financial circles operate
under a hunting rather than a
> >> farming attitude. What
is needed is a change of attitude to convince
the
>
>> financiers of the world that they will make more money in the
long term
> >> by allowing more prosperity in the lowest
echelons of society by means
of
> >> less
exploitation on "loans" issued to enhance the developement of the
> >> worlds natural resources. I believe this is one of
the fundamental
tenets
> >> of the Socred movement.
We should not lose sight of this in our
arguments
>
>> about mechanisms.
>
>>
Bill Mc Gunnigle
> >> From: John G Rawson
> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 11:39 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Economic
Democracy
> >>
> >>
>
>> Under the system we had, trading ("commercial" in
your terms, I
think)
> >> banks had to lodge a
proportion of their deposits (i.e. equivalent to)
> >>
with the Reserve Bank, our central bank. Is/was there a
ddifferent
> >> system in vogue anywhere else? If so, I
have never heard of it and
> >> therefore thought my
comment needed no interpretation. The underlying
> >>
assumption, obviously, was that banks lent their deposits. In
effect
it
> >> had very little effect on lending,
which presumably is why our Royal
> >> Commission
accepted evidence that the method was "a blunt instrument"
and
> >> placed that comment in its Report.
> >>
> >> If the nation is to have any direct
control over bank lending,
Martin's
> >> suggestion
sems to me to be the only really practical one anybody has
>
>> come up with.
> >>
> >>
Regards. John R.
> >>
> >>
>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> >> From: <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
> >> Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Economic Democracy
> >> Date:
Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
>
>> >"And do they apply, quite
inappropriately to
> >>
>deposits?"
> >>
>------------------------------------
>
>>
>-------------------------------------
>
>> >
>
>> >I don't even know what this is
supposed to mean, John.
> >>
>Perhaps you will interpret.
>
>> >
>
>> >
>
>> >--- John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >> >
>
>> >What reserve requirements do you
have in the US? NZ
> >> >has
none, and I thought you had gone over to control
>
>> >by interest rate changes too..
And do they apply,
> >> >quite
inappropriately to deposits?
> >>
>
> >> >Regards. John R.
> >> >
>
>> >
>
>> >
> >>
>
>>
>___________________________________________________________________________
_________
> >> >Looking
for earth-friendly autos?
> >>
>Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
> >> >http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
> >>
> >>
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> >>
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