| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Historic accuracy? | | Date: | Thursday, April 5, 2007 10:22:46 (-0400) | | From: | Richard Cook <rickycook21 @.......com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 4653 (written by Wallace Klinck) |
Ezra seemed rather proud of the fact that his grandfather issued perfectly
valid and acceptable paper money against his lumber!
>From: Wallace Klinck <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
>Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Historic accuracy?
>Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 03:08:40 -0600
>
>Pound had an outstanding literary talent and nurtured a number of
>prominent writers. He was very badly treated by the U. S. Government and
>may well have been sane--just having a somewhat erratic "artistic"
>temperament which was not always consistent. Perhaps, indeed, a less
>"sane" (or moral) establishment could neither understand or tolerate his
>"mindset" and pungent criticism. His apparent sympathies for the policies
>of fascist Italy, whatever they were, betrayed his lack of full
>comprehension of Social Credit. His rants against "usury", although
>perhaps understandable, and his attitudes toward the policies of the
>Italian Government under Mussolini, while at the same time declaring his
>admiration for Douglas's ideas, expose his fundamental misunderstanding of
>Social Credit, per se. Like so many, he seemed to be drawn toward
>centralized power as a mechanism whereby to expunge the evil of finance as
>he saw it. He may have regarded himself as a "Douglasite" but I am sure
>that Douglas would not have given his approval to this notion. Rather
>than deal with the basic cause of the accumulation of unrepayable debt,
>Pound seemed more inclined to damn "usury" (although he did refer to
>Douglas's "A + B Theorem"). This is akin to damning the plague while
>ignoring the underlying cause of it. If the core problem were dealt with
>a la Douglas, the "evils" of "usury" would evaporate--but the way to this
>end is through the decentralization of power by the universalization of
>adequate purchasing-power, and not by policies with enhance the power of
>the state by channeling the flow of money through state expenditures.
>Both the Fascist German and Italian--and Bolshevik regimes appropriated
>and deployed the public credit to serve "state" objectives under rigid
>policies of compulsory work (i.e., "full- employment"). While the fascist
>states, for a time, may have been administered better than the communist
>regimes in terms of delivering a better standard of living because of
>higher production efficiency-- the philosophies and policies of both
>ideologies are essentially the opposite of those of Social Credit-- which
>aims to free individuals from the imposition of "work" under external
>direction and regards the release of mankind from the necessity to toil,
>through use of more efficient technology, as a blessing rather that a
>curse or a moral dilemma. The curse is the suffering which ensues from an
>inability of society to fully access the products of industry because of
>an inherent growing lack of purchasing-power. Social Credit policy is
>specifically formulated to address this problem.
>
>Following are some words from Major Douglas:
>
>"In these days of coalition Governments, control by "Planners," and other
>modern improvements, it is difficult to realise that Cavaliers and
>Roundheads, Whigs and Tories, were exponents of two philosophies.
>The Whigs were merchants, abstractionists, the dealers in intangibles. It
>is not a coincidence that the Whigs, Quakers, and nonconformists, became
>bankers and collaborators with the Jews, both resident and continental.
>They were fundamentalists.
>The 'Old Testament' was a record of the sayings and doings of an
>omnipotent if somewhat irrational Ruler, who spoke Elizabethan English and
>had a private staircase to Mount Sinai.
>Consistency was not to be expected of Him. What we should now call
>masochism, the glorification of pain, was explained by the idea that
>discomfort in this life automatically ensured bliss in a future existence.
>Carried to its logical conclusion, as many of Cromwell's semi-animal
>barbarians were prepared to carry it, the most certain way to prepare a
>general Heaven was to create a Hell upon earth.
>This philosophy, as we shall see when we consider the case of Germany,
>runs through Lutherism, Calvinism and other Puritan movements straight
>into civil war and revolution. Always, it is the attack of the
>black-coated theorist on the pragmatist, the farmer, the sailor, the
>pioneer. At the root of it is a denial of personal initiative and
>judgment, and the substitution of a set of transcendental values incapable
>of, and indeed almost resenting, any attempt at proof." (C.H. Douglas,
>The Brief for the Prosecution, 1945)
>
>
>
>Regarding the belief of some people that Douglas wanted the government to
>be the sole issuer of money Douglas observes, again in The Brief for the
>Prosecution:
>
>"Various well-meaning if somewhate naive organisations have stated, as
>though it were both axiomatic and desirable, that only 'the State' has the
>'right' to issue purchasing power. That is the Divine right of Kings
>complex again."
>
>
>I invite those who may be interested in an analysis of the subject of
>Pound and Social Credit to read: "Pound, Social Credit. and the Critics"
>by Dennis R. Klinck (Paideuma--published during the 1970s or 80s, I
>believe).
>
>Wally
>
>On 4-Apr-07, at 1:27 AM, Richard Cook wrote:
>
>>Yes, of course my comment about "fascism" was facetious, and I am sorry
>>if anyone was offended.
>>I also want to mention that yesterday I spent some time at the University
>>of Maryland library and found some very interesting pamphlets written by
>>Ezra Pound from the 1930s. Pound, of course, had a very accurate picture
>>of the U.S. banking system, which was the basis of what he called the
>>"usurocracy," and it was these views he shared with Eustace Mullen, whose
>>portrayal of the Federal Reserve System is also accurate. However, Pound
>>traced the rise of the bank-dominated society in the U.S. back even
>>further, to the National Banking Acts of 1863-4 during the Civil War.
>>Pound also had an interesting bit of personal history, in that his
>>grandfather owned a lumber business in Michigan, against which he issued
>>paper money, as did many other businesses at the time. This money
>>circulated as a spending medium in that region and was redeemable for a
>>designated quantity of lumber. He even showed a facsimile of one of the
>>dollar bills his grandfather issued. Also, it was interesting to find
>>that in the pamphlet "Social Credit--An Impact," Pound pointed out that
>>he had been a "Douglasite" for the last 16 years. This would have gone
>>back to 1919 when Pound knew Orage. He didn't provide any details, but he
>>said that the government of Italy during the 1930s was making an attempt
>>to implement Social Credit principles. It would be interesting to pursue
>>that further if anyone had any information. I think our views of Pound
>>are distorted by the fact that the U.S. government locked him up in St.
>>Elizabeth's mental hospital in Washington, D.C., for 12 years. This sort
>>of thing tends to happen when you are on the losing side in a war that
>>your native country is involved in, but Pound was likely far more sane
>>than most of the people who passed by that place every day. Eventually,
>>of course, he was allowed to return to Italy and spend the rest of his
>>life in peace. But he had a very accurate view of the nature of our
>>monetary system and fortunately was able to pass on some of it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
>>>Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>>>To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Historic accuracy?
>>>Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 14:14:31 +1200
>>>
>>>Hi Keith
>>> Thank you for the confirmation of the work by Del Mar. I
>>>was racking my brains to remember which of Innes's contemporaries had
>>>actually written a work making my point. As I mentioned in the "essay"
>>>modern research supports Del Mar rather than Innes. There are numerous
>>>examples throughout history of coins of particular metallic assey
>>>produced by the various empires dating back as far as Sumer and the
>>>Babylonians. It is one position that appears to be inviolate. Rulers
>>>insisted on their coins being of a particular purity and metallic
>>>content. The "milled edge" was an early innovation to prevent people
>>>shaving away the edges of coins to obtain the precious metal contained
>>>in them. Many Roman coins appear to have them. This all appears to
>>>contradict Innes contention that "There never was a monetary unit that
>>>depended upon a particular weight of precious metal until modern times".
>>> On another topic I must assume that Richards comment about Fascism is
>>>somewhat facetious. Nevertheless he does have a good point. We should
>>>never assume because someone has a markedly different view from our own
>>>that they are a moron. It is only by looking at historical facts and
>>>sifting out truth from fiction that we can obtain a full picture of a
>>>situation. You can often gain precious insight into a problem by
>>>listening carefully to someone who has a radically different approach to
>>>a position than your own. That is the mark of the true scientist and
>>>historian.
>>> Bill Mc Gunnigle
>>>ssage ----- From: "keith wilde" <kwilde@tc-biodiversity.org>
>>>To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 4:06 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Historic accuracy?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I anticipate with interest the exchange that will
>>>>develop between you and Bill over this one.
>>>>
>>>>Keith
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--- Richard Cook <rickycook21@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In my opinion it is absolutely fruitless and a waste
>>>>>of time to use labels
>>>>>like "fascist" to discuss any aspect of monetary
>>>>>research or proposals. It
>>>>>resembles a smear campaign. Ideas should be
>>>>>discussed impartially and on
>>>>>their merits. Mussolini "made the trains run on
>>>>>time." So I suppose trains
>>>>>and watches are "fascist?"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >From: "Keith Wilde" <keithwilde@sympatico.ca>
>>>>> >Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>>>>> >To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>>> >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Historic accuracy?
>>>>> >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 02:18:37 -0400
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Very interesting! The implication for Douglas that
>>>>>Ryan notes is
>>>>> >paralleled by the "creditary" theory developed by
>>>>>Meakin and Gardiner--both
>>>>> >of which I have found to be very persuasive. On
>>>>>the other hand, the point
>>>>> >made by McGunn. is reinforced in the work of
>>>>>Alexander Del Mar. In
>>>>> >particular, I have his 1896 book History of
>>>>>Monetary Systems which is
>>>>> >primarily a history of coinage that emphasizes the
>>>>>consistency over time of
>>>>> >particular coins and their direct link to a
>>>>>recognized political authority.
>>>>> >A notable example is a gold coin (solidus?) that
>>>>>was the standard of value
>>>>> >throughout Europe until the fall of Constantinople.
>>>>> From the introductory
>>>>> >notes to my 1983 re-issue of his book, it is
>>>>>evident that Del Mar was a
>>>>> >justifiably recognized authority on the history of
>>>>>the precious metals and
>>>>> >of coinage. This one is the last of his books on
>>>>>the subject, which number
>>>>> >six in total--plus many articles. So, there was
>>>>>plenty of quite recent
>>>>> >scholarship to the contrary that Innes could have
>>>>>used.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I just happened to have the Del Mar book on my
>>>>>shelves when starting to
>>>>> >read Zarlenga's Lost Science of Money, having
>>>>>spotted it in the window of a
>>>>> >used book store not many months previously. I read
>>>>>it in conjunction, and
>>>>> >found that Stephen made very extensive use of Del
>>>>>Mar, resting much of his
>>>>> >argument on the work of the latter. Although there
>>>>>seems to have been a
>>>>> >perception of common interest between Zarlenga and
>>>>>Meakin-Gardiner while
>>>>> >the former's work was in progress, publication and
>>>>>review shattered it, for
>>>>> >they found that they were not on the same track at
>>>>>all. Ryan's observation
>>>>> >about Douglas and Innes is reinforcement of the
>>>>>point.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >There is interesting anecdotal linkage here to the
>>>>>element of what Ryan
>>>>> >calls fascism in proposals for monetary reform like
>>>>>those of Zarlenga. The
>>>>> >reissue of the Del Mar book that I have was an
>>>>>intiative of The National
>>>>> >Poetry Foundation, University of Maine at Orono, in
>>>>>The Ezra Pound
>>>>> >Scholarship Series. Pound was imprisoned for many
>>>>>years by the United
>>>>> >States because of his support for ideals of the
>>>>>Mussolini regime in Italy.
>>>>> >He was visited frequently in prison by Eustace
>>>>>Mullins, a youthful admirer
>>>>> >who researched the origins of the Federal Reserve
>>>>>System as a staff member
>>>>> >at the Library of Congress. This was published in
>>>>>1952, and the copy I have
>>>>> >was re-issued in 1954 as The Federal Reserve
>>>>>Conspiracy. It was put into
>>>>> >my hands by the former leader of the Social Credit
>>>>>Party of Canada, John
>>>>> >Blackmore, but I had never read it until I found
>>>>>that Zarlenga was basing
>>>>> >much of his argument upon it. At the time he
>>>>>published the book, Mullins
>>>>> >was also serving as chief of research for the
>>>>>Unamerican Activities
>>>>> >campaign of Joseph McCarthy. This link led me to
>>>>>review a lot of conspiracy
>>>>> >literature, some of which I had read and discounted
>>>>>long in the past. As I
>>>>> >passed on these bits of info to Stephen, he became
>>>>>upset with me and
>>>>> >accused me of wanting to destroy his position,
>>>>>which was not the case.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >(I have read the subsequent exchanges under this
>>>>>head, those between Martin
>>>>> >and Ryan, and the substantial essay by McGunn. of
>>>>>this morning. This seemed
>>>>> >like the most appropriate place to insert my own
>>>>>comment.)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Keith
>>>>> >
>>>>> >----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >From: <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>>>>> >To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>>> >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:26 AM
>>>>> >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Historic accuracy?
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > Then I take it you do not agree with this from
>>>>>Innes'
>>>>> > > 1913 paper
>>>>> > > http://www.geocities.com/new_economics/innes
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > "...there is overwhelming evidence that there
>>>>>never
>>>>> > > was a monetary unit which depended on the value
>>>>>of
>>>>> > > coin or on a weight of metal; that there never
>>>>>was,
>>>>> > > until quite modern days, any fixed relationship
>>>>> > > between the monetary unit and any metal; that,
>>>>>in
>>>>> > > fact, there never was such a thing as a metallic
>>>>> > > standard of value."
>>>>> > > ------------------
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Here's the thing. Douglas' theory makes no
>>>>>sense
>>>>> > > whatsoever from the orthodox money is a medium
>>>>>of
>>>>> > > exchange perspective. His theory makes perfect
>>>>>sense
>>>>> > > from the creditary perspective expressed by
>>>>>Innes.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > --- William Hugh McGunnigle
>>>>><wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
>>>>> > > wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > With due respect the Innes papers were designed
>>>>>to try
>>>>> > > to demonstrate that there was no control of
>>>>>coinage in
>>>>> > > the dark ages. They ignored to a large extent
>>>>>the fact
>>>>> > > that monarchs used the "tally stick" to keep
>>>>>track of
>>>>> > > finances and these were used for "tax
>>>>>assessment".
>>>>> > > Coin value was related to these. I therefore
>>>>>stand by
>>>>> > > my previous statement that, although it appeared
>>>>>that
>>>>> > > coinage was not really under control there was a
>>>>>rigid
>>>>> > > value system related to weight of Gold, Silver
>>>>>and
>>>>> > > Copper metal in coins. The methods of assessing
>>>>>coin
>>>>> > > purity had been established long before the
>>>>>advent of
>>>>> > > the Roman Empire by Archmeides of Greece.
>>>>>Although it
>>>>> > > appeared crude by modern methods of assey it was
>>>>>still
>>>>> > > adequate for practical purposes. Contrary to
>>>>>popular
>>>>> > > belief the men who did this type of assey work
>>>>>were
>>>>> > > skilled and generally honest because they were
>>>>> > > appointed by Royal decree. The penalty for
>>>>>incorrect
>>>>> > > assey was death. Innes work, while skilled and
>>>>> > > undoubtedly honestly conducted, suffered from an
>>>>> > > obvious bias. He was selective in his choice of
>>>>> > > primary sources and tended to ignore sources
>>>>>that
>>>>> > > contradicted his basic premises. In all fairness
>>>>>he is
>>>>> > > not the only historian to do this, but he is
>>>>>open to
>>>>> > > strong critisism because of it. I personally
>>>>>cannot
>>>>>
>>>>=== message truncated ===
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------- -
>>>>Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>>>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>>>>For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>You're subscribed to this list with the email rickycook21@hotmail.com
>>>For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
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>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
>>For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>You're subscribed to this list with the email rickycook21@hotmail.com
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