| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic Bridger | | Date: | Thursday, April 19, 2007 17:43:34 (+1200) | | From: | Peter <cymric @.......nz>
|
| In reply to: | Message 4709 (written by Wallace Klinck) |
Wally, nothing came though, there was no attachment. Try again please.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wallace Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic Bridger
> Peter, I attach by personal message an article in PDF format titled
> "The Cancellation Bogie" by Robert Purchase from TSC (Oct. 8,1937)
> for your interest. The SC Consumer Credits have old costs which have
> arisen from prior production loans waiting as a claim against them.
> When they are paid they against them and are extinguished as
> purchasing-power as are, simultaneously, the debts in question.
> These Credits are created "debt-free" in the sense that they incur no
> new debt but they are not "debt-free" in the sense that old debts are
> waiting to claim and extinguish them.
>
> Sincerely
> Wally
>
> On 16-Apr-07, at 5:55 PM, Joe Thomson wrote:
>
>> (Peter wrote:-) "Joes' proposal is that the dividend is
>> effectively to pay
>> debt, which isnt
>> expressed by Douglas. The dividend is to compensate the fault in the
>> costing -accounting system."
>>
>> (Joe replies:-) But Peter, what does the un-compensated "fault in
>> the
>> cost-accounting system" lead to?
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 3:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic Bridger
>>
>>
>>> No one advocated that the current system should be changed to that
>>> whereby
>>> the money supply should 'spent into circulation' by govt, so I dont
>>> understand why Joe addressed it as if Richard had when he clearly
>>> said it
>>> could one means of doing so among others. Such an alternatiuve
>>> would be
>> as
>>> bad if not worse than what we have. I agree with Bill McG that we
>>> need to
>>> 'change the way it ( the money system) operates' and that there
>>> has been
>> no
>>> clear answering proposals originating from correspondents.
>>> Joes' proposal is that the dividend is effectively to pay debt,
>>> which isnt
>>> expressed by Douglas. The dividend is to compensate the fault in the
>>> costing -accounting system.
>>> The banks left intact, given their history of strategies to
>>> protect their
>>> domain can tighten the money supply ( think what that will do to
>>> the near
>>> hundred percent household debt in the developed world!) and soak
>>> up the
>>> dividend faster or flood the market as against the Greenback and
>>> blame the
>>> inflation on the dividend, alternate both. The political fall out
>>> will as
>>> usual be too much for the public to handle.
>>>
>>> I would suggest that the main difference between Indonesia and a
>>> first
>> world
>>> country is that the infastructural development and use of
>>> resourses were
>>> well established ( under Keynesian policy) before Bretten Woods
>>> and the
>> IMF
>>> were let loose on the world. However the developed world is
>>> having to
>> face
>>> a major renewing of the old infratsructures and to let the banks
>>> remain in
>>> charge through that phase will reduce the gap between Indonesia
>>> and us a
>> lot
>>> smaller. Aklready poverty is amjor problem in the developed world.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 1:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic Bridger
>>>
>>>
>>>> Reply to Joe:
>>>> I appreciated your discourse Joe, and find no
>>>> reason
>> to
>>>> argue with you. Indeed I thought that the general tenor of my last
>> missive
>>>> covered all your points. Quite obviously I have failed, in print, to
>>>> convey the message that you have expressed so effectively. I will
>>>> need
>> to
>>>> chose my words more carefully in future.
>>>> regards
>>>> Bill McG
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
>>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2007 1:08 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic Bridger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I believe both Richard Cook and Bill McGunnigle are still largely
>> missing
>>>>> the point. The purpose of any economic system should be to
>>>>> deliver the
>>>>> 'physically possible' goods and services that are needed and
>>>>> desired by
>>>>> CONSUMERS. Each and every one of us, as INDIVIDUALS. For we
>>>>> are ALL
>>>>> 'consumers', even though it is no longer necessary, or even
>>>>> desirable,
>>>>> that
>>>>> we ALL be 'producers'. At least in the traditional sense we once
>> were.
>>>>> And this is true whether we're residents of the USA, New Zealand,
>>>>> Indonesia, or wherever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look around your own country. How many people, whatever the
>>>>> accepted
>>>>> standard of living, wherever you are, are living right now at a
>>>>> 'subsistence' level. And are unable to rise above it. The only
>>>>> difference between there, (places like Indonesia, the 'Third-
>>>>> World'),
>> and
>>>>> here, is the accepted standard of living here is higher. But
>>>>> so, too,
>> is
>>>>> the level of OVERALL personal indebtedness. We, on average, live
>> higher
>>>>> on
>>>>> the hog, but we're also 'financially' far deeper in the bog.
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason for that all that 'personal' indebtedness, in our
>>>>> 'First-World'
>>>>> countries, ISN'T that the 'GOVERNMENT' doesn't "create money and
>>>>> spend
>> it
>>>>> into circulation on public works". A policy which will ultimately
>> only
>>>>> lead to greater 'debt', only to a different party. (Higher
>>>>> taxes ~ as
>>>>> the
>>>>> 'debt' is now owed, and must be repaid, to the 'Government',
>>>>> which in
>>>>> spite
>>>>> of what many may think, is NOT the same as you and I as
>>>>> 'Individuals'.
>>>>> And
>>>>> it will be repaid. Either through those higher taxes directly. Or
>>>>> indirectly, through the cruelest tax of them all , inflation. Or
>> likely
>>>>> both.).
>>>>>
>>>>> The only solution to this, if we truly DO believe that "systems
>>>>> were
>> made
>>>>> for man, and not man for systems" ~ in other words, that the
>> 'individual'
>>>>> is
>>>>> the most important element, and that 'society' is formed for the
>> service
>>>>> of
>>>>> each of us, as 'individuals' ~ is to make it possible for OVERALL
>> 'debt',
>>>>> no
>>>>> matter whether it's to its creator as a private bank, a Government
>> bank,
>>>>> or
>>>>> the 'Treasury", to be always completely capable of 'self-
>>>>> liquidation'.
>>>>> This
>>>>> it presently is NOT!
>>>>>
>>>>> We can only do this by the proper periodic distribution of
>>>>> appropriate
>>>>> amounts of 'debt-free' new credit directly to CONSUMERS. To
>>>>> ensure
>> that
>>>>> 'past' aggregate debt is always capable of being fully self
>>>>> liquidating
>>>>> as
>>>>> it comes due in the 'present'. Even though 'future' debt may
>>>>> continue
>> to
>>>>> grow as we continue to add necessary 'real production' capacity,
>>>>> (including
>>>>> 'public works', if they are truly necessary, which many no doubt
>>>>> are),
>> we
>>>>> will then always be fully capable of its liquidation as it comes
>>>>> due.
>>>>>
>>>>> We CAN NOT make it so merely by "spending money into circulation
>>>>> for
>>>>> public
>>>>> works, infratructure, statues to great leaders, armaments, etc." as
>>>>> proposed. That only replaces one debt with another. A larger one,
>> that
>>>>> in
>>>>> itself can only be paid by an endless repitition of the process.
>> Which
>>>>> will culminate in an orgy of 'physical destruction', ultimately
>>>>> accomplished through 'war', and carried out in a mindless
>>>>> attempt to
>> make
>>>>> the 'facts' fit the 'figures', rather than properly having the
>> 'figures'
>>>>> reflect the 'facts'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bill Ryan has provided the background for, and possibilities of, a
>>>>> method
>>>>> by which, in the USA at least, we might move from where we
>>>>> presently
>> are
>>>>> to
>>>>> where we'd like to go. I think it is a very interesting
>>>>> approach to a
>>>>> subject which has not, to my knowledge, been approached from that
>>>>> direction
>>>>> before. I have some concerns, and doubtless others will
>>>>> surface, about
>>>>> certain aspects of what's proposed. I'm optimistic those
>>>>> concerns will
>>>>> be
>>>>> examined and addressed, and I believe they will be. Regardless, I
>>>>> believe
>>>>> Bill Ryan has been consistant in his approach towards increasing
>>>>> financial
>>>>> 'freedom for the individual' rather than in merely proposing a
>>>>> 'change
>> of
>>>>> masters'.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Richard Cook" <rickycook21@hotmail.com>
>>>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:57 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic
>>>>> Bridger
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> The delusion is that a country needs someone else's money, such
>>>>>> as the
>>>>> U.S.
>>>>>> dollar, to lubricate their own financial and economic system. All
>> these
>>>>>> countries have the capability, either on their own or in
>>>>>> concert with
>>>>>> others, to generate their own indigenous currency. It could be
>>>>>> done
>>>>>> either
>>>>>> by their government spending it into circulation or by issuance of
>>>>>> credit
>>>>> in
>>>>>> the form of low-interest loans. This is how Colonial America
>>>>>> built its
>>>>>> economy, by using scrip. Another example is the use of
>>>>>> Greenbacks by
>> the
>>>>>> U.S. during and after the Civil War. An outside fund source is not
>>>>>> needed
>>>>>> for indigenous currency which any nation can use to develop its
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> resources. It can then sell some of these products to overseas
>> customers
>>>>> to
>>>>>> acquire currency to use in foreign trade.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
>>>>>>> Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>>>>>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic
>>>>>>> Bridger
>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2007 11:37:28 +1200
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> W.H.McGunnigle: comments on Reply by William B. Ryan
>>>>>>> Your comments with respect to Major Douglas do
>> have
>>>>>>> some relevance considering that the financial position
>>>>>>> globally is
>> far
>>>>>>> different than in his day. Nevertheless his basic axiom,
>>>>>>> namely that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> money in circulation in our present system of financial
>>>>>>> managent, is
>>>>> always
>>>>>>> smaller than the amount of goods and services that can be made
>>>>>>> available
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> everyone, still holds true. The biggest problem facing monetary
>>>>>>> reformers
>>>>>>> is CHANGING the way it operates. While I look with interest on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> arguments put forward about A+B I have yet to see someone who
>>>>>>> offers
>> a
>>>>>>> tangible and viable method of reducing indeptedness to the
>>>>>>> private
>>>>> banking
>>>>>>> system. This compounding problem is the reason why resource rich
>>>>> countries
>>>>>>> like Indonesia have a massive amount of poverty among its general
>>>>>>> population. I do know that many of these "third world"
>>>>>>> resource rich
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>> cash poor countries are now realising that they will get no
>>>>>>> positive
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> from industrialised developed countries beyond that which will
>> maintain
>>>>>>> them at a bare subsistance level, and that they have to adopt
>> financial
>>>>>>> methods that bypass the IMF and World Bank to avoid the crippling
>> debt
>>>>>>> burden preventing them from self-financing their own
>>>>>>> developement.
>>>>>>> They are looking with favour on Socred type methods to do
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> despite efforts by the IMF and World Bank to prevent it.
>>>>>>> respectfully submitted
>>>>>>> Bill McGunnigle
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2007 6:26 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Some Forwarded Comments from Vic
>>>>>>> Bridger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe, I look on Vic Bridger and also Wally Klinck as
>>>>>>>> being in somewhat the position of being village
>>>>>>>> priests in a near dead religion, who have done great
>>>>>>>> service in preserving the ancient texts of the founder
>>>>>>>> of their religion, inasmuch as the ancient texts have
>>>>>>>> disappeared practically everywhere else. They are,
>>>>>>>> however, in my opinion, not necessarily the best
>>>>>>>> interpreters of the ancient texts. By saying this I
>>>>>>>> mean no disrespect whatsoever. They have both been
>>>>>>>> exceedingly helpful to me in supplying much of the
>>>>>>>> Douglas literature that they have maintained in their
>>>>>>>> personal archives.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I regard C. H. Douglas as having been a true though
>>>>>>>> flawed genius, flawed in the sense that every one of
>>>>>>>> us is flawed. He was poorly understood by not only
>>>>>>>> his detractors, but also his supporters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I see very little in the historic Social Credit
>>>>>>>> literature apart from Douglas' own writings that is
>>>>>>>> worth reading today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --- Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vic Bridger wrote the following 'off-list' private
>>>>>>>> comments as part of an e-mail to Keith Wilde, with a
>>>>>>>> copy to myself, and has agreed they may be more useful
>>>>>>>> if forwarded to the List.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They were made on April 8th, and convey some of his
>>>>>>>> thoughts on the subjects under discussion on the List
>>>>>>>> under the heading, "In Reply to Keith, more on A+B",
>>>>>>>> up to that date.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While Vic did not say so to me specifically in a later
>>>>>>>> e-mail , I don't believe his position has changed from
>>>>>>>> what's appeared on the List under that same heading
>>>>>>>> since then. He also notes, "The next Australasian
>>>>>>>> (Social Credit-Joe) Journal contains much on what has
>>>>>>>> been said on the Elistas group discussion particularly
>>>>>>>> with regards to the Banking system, the National
>>>>>>>> Credit Authority, Debt and Controls."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Vic Bridger wrote, [addressed to Keith] :-) "I am
>>>>>>>> taking the trouble to send this message to you,
>>>>>>>> hopefully, to explain some differences I have with
>>>>>>>> what has been posted on the Elistas group discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bill responded to you on April 5th regarding your
>>>>>>>> comment that "the Social Credit solution would have a
>>>>>>>> government office to calculate the precise amount of
>>>>>>>> new claims to goods and services."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Whilst I agree with your comment I believe it could
>>>>>>>> have been worded a little better but your meaning was
>>>>>>>> clear enough. I notice the comments re the name of the
>>>>>>>> government office and also the comments about
>>>>>>>> corruption, which I find rather silly. If there are
>>>>>>>> people who are concerned about what might happen under
>>>>>>>> a Social Credit system, why are they not doing
>>>>>>>> something about the corruption that is rife under the
>>>>>>>> current system?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Social Credit policy is not about attempting to
>>>>>>>> change human nature nor does it make any claim to
>>>>>>>> absolute perfection in ALL things. It is simply a
>>>>>>>> method to arrest the flaw in the financial accounting
>>>>>>>> system to reflect facts. It makes no claim to
>>>>>>>> establishing a system that would lead to some sort of
>>>>>>>> utopia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bill has completely missed the point and his
>>>>>>>> diversion into the A+B is way off track. I believe
>>>>>>>> that although he accepts the A+B Theorem as being
>>>>>>>> correct he attempts to read too much into it. For
>>>>>>>> instance although he brings "TIME" into his graph it
>>>>>>>> is simply a recognition that time is a factor. However
>>>>>>>> not only is it a factor but also it is a crucial
>>>>>>>> factor, which cannot be graphed, in a static
>>>>>>>> condition. The economy is not static but dynamic and
>>>>>>>> whatever may be the position at any point of time will
>>>>>>>> be different one millisecond later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The only way to determine what we refer to as a
>>>>>>>> deficiency, in any particular period, is after the
>>>>>>>> event, in other words after the period has ended. Dr.
>>>>>>>> Tudor Jones, the Chairnan who followed Douglas wrote a
>>>>>>>> series of lectures published under the title of
>>>>>>>> Elements of Social Credit. One lecture is devoted to
>>>>>>>> the "notion of sufficiency". I will not repeat this
>>>>>>>> here and if you do not have this book I can send you a
>>>>>>>> copy of the lecture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bill brings into his argument such items as "Sales"
>>>>>>>> and "Expenditure" neither, of which have any relation
>>>>>>>> to the A+B Theorem. The A+B relates to Wages, Salaries
>>>>>>>> and Dividends and Prices. One might argue that
>>>>>>>> "Prices" and "Sales" are synonymous but this is quite
>>>>>>>> incorrect. The price of an article, for the purpose of
>>>>>>>> explaining the A+B is an accumulation of costs, some
>>>>>>>> of which are distributed and some which are not
>>>>>>>> distributed in a particular period of production.
>>>>>>>> Sales of an article are not necessarily equivalent to
>>>>>>>> the Price, which contains all costs. As Douglas quite
>>>>>>>> correctly pointed out, sales below cost or at cost are
>>>>>>>> in fact one way of reducing the deficiency in
>>>>>>>> purchasing power (not money).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Expenditure is not synonymous with "Costs" and is
>>>>>>>> misleading in that there are two types of expenditure.
>>>>>>>> One is for wages, salaries and dividends (A) and other
>>>>>>>> payments (B) that are again of two types for the
>>>>>>>> purpose of explanation. One is payments to other
>>>>>>>> organizations for past transactions and the other is
>>>>>>>> for items for which no actual "expenditure" has taken
>>>>>>>> place, i.e. depreciation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The comment in his paragraph 4, "Not graphed is real
>>>>>>>> production." is pointless. It is not necessary,
>>>>>>>> desirable to attempt and impossible to keep (A+B) or
>>>>>>>> (A) constant in relation to production. This together
>>>>>>>> with his supposition on monetary policy as an "easy
>>>>>>>> money policy" is a reflection of his orthodox economic
>>>>>>>> training and has nothing to do with Social Credit
>>>>>>>> proposals. Monetary policy, easy or restricted, has
>>>>>>>> nothing to do with Social Credit proposals.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Other issues he brings in such as credit becoming to
>>>>>>>> loose or too tight, open market, purchasing or selling
>>>>>>>> of securities are again issues relating to current
>>>>>>>> orthodox economic, financial and monetary policies.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "There are a number of other items with which I could
>>>>>>>> take issue but find unnecessary to deliberate on
>>>>>>>> here."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (End of quoted part)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joe
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>>>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>>>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this
>>>>>>>> list are
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email
>>>>>>>> wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>>>>>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/
>>>>>>>> socialcredit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this
>>>>>>> list are
>> at
>>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email
>>>>>>> rickycook21@hotmail.com
>>>>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/
>>>>>>> socialcredit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win
>>>>>> today.
>>>>>> http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this
>>>>>> list are
>> at
>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
>>>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/
>>>>>> socialcredit
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
>>>>> are at
>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
>>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/
>>>>> socialcredit
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
>>>> are at
>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email cymric@xtra.co.nz
>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
>>> are at
>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
>> are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email cymric@xtra.co.nz
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
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