| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] in point of clarification | | Date: | Sunday, May 20, 2007 20:08:45 (-0400) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 4784 (written by Richard Cook) |
Is 'seignorage' even relevant in a modern 'creditary' money system?
In any event, would you not simply be adding another 'cost' to those that
the borrower is already going to have to pay?
Since the 'on-lending' Bank would have to pass the cost of whatever it paid
the Treasury on to the borrower, would it not? That borrower, if a
'firm', would then have to include the (additional) cost in its prices, and
eventually, if and when its product sells, the consuming public would be
stuck with them. Seems just like another form of 'tax' to me.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Cook" <rickycook21@hotmail.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] in point of clarification
> A solution that has been put forward is requiring a publicy-chartered bank
> to borrow money from the Treasury then relending it to the public. That
way
> the government gets seignorage.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] in point of clarification
> >Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 21:16:18 +0000
> >
> >
> >Good material Joe. But I suggest the question is not whether commercial
> >banks would be allowed to continue creating money, but whether it would
be
> >possible to stop them? Is that on a par with stopping you or me from
> >breathing? If you can think of a method, I'd be interested. Certainly
what
> >they do and the amount they are allowed to create could be controlled,
but
> >I believe the "nature of the beast" is such that it could not be stopped.
> >
> >Someone, of course, will come up with the "hundred percent reserve
ratio",
> >without realising that it applies to deposits already created, not
lending.
> >
> >Regards. John R.
> >
> >
> >From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> >Reply-To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] in point of clarification
> >Date: Sat, 19 May 2007 21:26:16 -0400
> > >(Peter wrote:-) The 'perfect analogy' is perhaps more cogent as a
> > >demostration that there is
> > > no debt in the natural world.
> > >
> > >(Joe replies:-) No, while I think you're right, "there is no debt in
> > >nature", I believe the 'perfect analogy' of the Leap Year that Bill
cited
> > >demonstates that it's unnecessary to 'record' everything in 'figures'
> > >absolutely perfectly to be useful. That we can still always keep what
we
> > >have recorded accurate enough, (through periodic adjustment of those
> > >'figures'), for the actual, day-to-day purposes for which we want to
> >use
> > >them.
> > >
> > >(Peter continues:-) The other point is the current system and Social
> >Credit
> > >(which is science
> > > based on reality) can't both make the same claim. If they can then
> >Douglas
> > > was deluded. These are philosophically opposites and a mere technical
> > > 'adjustment' to the current system doesn't balance opposites.
> > >
> > >(Joe replies:-) I don't know about that. In accounting a 'debit' entry
on
> > >one side of the ledger is balanced by a corresponding 'credit' entry on
> >the
> > >other, is it not? And if the two sides don't come to a perfect balance,
> >we
> > >look for reasons why. And often make accounting 'adjustments', when and
> > >where necessary, so they do.
> > >
> > > It seems to me that this is done pretty well all the time
> > >'micro-economically' in every business now. To try to keep the
'figures'
> >as
> > >representative of 'reality' as we require them to be for whatever
> >purposes
> > >that we want to use them. Why should it be any different in the
> > >'macro-economy'?
> > >
> > >I think this leads back to the question of whether, under a 'social
> >credit'
> > >system, private banks would still retain the ability to 'create
credit',
> >as
> > >they do now.
> > >
> > >Only with what they do create being 'augmented' in its 'reflux' by
> >necessary
> > >periodic 'adjustments' through payouts of additional 'debt-free'
Consumer
> > >credits through the ND and CPD. Rather than as now, largely through
issue
> > >of ever more credit recorded as further, and repayable in the future,
> > >'debt' .
> > >
> > >Or, alternately, whether the ND and CPD are to be the ONLY sources of
> >'new
> > >credit', with the private banks to become merely 'on-lenders' of
> >their
> > >customer's deposits (derived from this 'credit'), or funds they have
> > >accumulated of their own, or can borrow elsewhere from other
> >institutional
> > >lenders.
> > >
> > >Personally, I'm still inclined to believe the first alternative above
> >would
> > >be the easiest to initiate and would work best at present. That it
would
> > >progressively lead towards where I believe we want to go ~ to a genuine
> >and
> > >practical 'economic democracy'. But there seems to be a case that can
be
> > >made for the latter, too. Though I'm not quite able to embrace it from
> > >what I've seen and understand of it so far.
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
> > >To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > >Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:58 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] in point of
> >clarification
> > >
> > >
> > > > The 'perfect analogy' is perhaps more cogent as a demostration that
> >there
> > >is
> > > > no debt in the natural world. There is no cost to the adjustment (
> >time
> > > > lots) that enslaves much of the world.
> > > > The other point is the current system and Social Credit (which is
> >science
> > > > based on reality) cant both make the same claim. If they can then
> >Douglas
> > > > was deluded. These are philosophically opposites and a mere
technical
> > > > 'adjustment' to the current system doest balance opposites.
> > > > Peter
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
> > > > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > > > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 4:07 AM
> > > > Subject: [socialcredit] in point of clarification
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > "I am saying that orthodox thinking can't see any
> > > > > 'gap' because they believe the velocity of money
> > > > > ensures that there is a balance. But we know that
> > > > > it's the steady inflow of new money borrowed that
> > > > > fills the 'gap', which Douglas has referred to as ever
> > > > > increasing debt. The steady inflow, effected by the
> > > > > interest rate mechanism, also pays the interest as
> > > > > well as the theorem gap. The basis of denial is the
> > > > > same for both of them."
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > In point of clarification:
> > > > >
> > > > > Banks are banks, in the sense that loans create
> > > >
> > > deposits and the repayment of loans cancel deposits.
> > > > >
> > > > > Banks are also businesses, in the sense that interest
> > > > > received plus fees and other charges constitute their
> > > > > gross sales, against which expenses are charged in
> > > > > determining their profits. So banks also have A + B
> > > > > payments, as does every commercial enterprise.
> > > > >
> > > > > The "gap" is the result of an decreasing ratio of A to
> > > > > B with labor displacement, in banking together with
> > > > > other commercial enterprises, causing the "reflux"
> > > > > from A to insufficiently amortize A + B as charged
> > > > > against sales at the point of retail, through time.
> > > > > So debt compounds in respect to physical production,
> > > > > distorting
> >contractual relationships.
> > > > >
> > > > > The solution is simply a matter of accounting
> > > > > adjustment.
> > > > >
> > > > > The perfect analogy is to the calendar. It is
> > > > > impossible to devise the perfect calendar, since
> > > > > earth's rotation about the sun cannot be divided into
> > > > > an exact number of whole days.
> > > > >
> > > > > So we adjust the calendar through leap years from time
> > > > > to time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
>___________________________________________________________________________
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