| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] debt is simply a financial tool | | Date: | Sunday, June 3, 2007 18:24:34 (-0600) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <hattersleyjm @.........com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 4837 (written by Joe Thomson) |
Joe -
I went on a Chamber of Commerce trip to the North in about 1982, and one of
our stops was at Fairbanks, Alaska. I was amazed at the warm reception given
there to Russ Patrick, former Socred Minister of Mines and Minerals, who was
still remembered several years after his retirement from politics, and
treated as quite the most important visitor there.
The story I got there was that Patrick and E.C.Manning had been flown one
weekend in secrecy and at at very short notice to meet the Governor of
Alaska, and it was the two of them who had put together the idea of the
Alaska Permanent Fund (I think it's called), which now pays dividends and
has been built up to an impressive size. What a contrast to what has
happened in Alberta, where we're now "pissing away" our resource dollars for
the second time!
A case of the prophet not being recognized in his own country, methinks.
Martin Hattersley
5929 - 189 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] debt is simply a financial tool
> Thanks, Martin. That's a very interesting read. Wasn't it Hinman who
> advised Alaska in the creation of its "Permanent Fund" that pays out
> 'dividends' every year to each Alaskan citizen?
>
> Perhaps something similar to that would be one way the Provinces, or at
> least the 'resource' rich ones, might move towards Social Credit in our
> times?
>
> As I recall, WAC Bennett, like your Mr. Manning, always held his political
> cards pretty close to his chest. He was a bit of an enigma in his
> seriousness in promoting 'genuine' Social Credit. Federally, he actively
> backed Real Caouette, who was certainly closer to Douglas's ideas than
> national SC leader Robert Thompson ever seemed to be.
>
> And Caouette made a great 'breakthrough' for SC in rural Quebec, though
> it's
> highly doubtful even if he had been national SC Party leader he'd have
> done
> any better out here than Thompson did. Maybe not even as well. Though he
> was a terrific orator when he got going.
>
> But getting that number of Socreds elected Federally, especially ones that
> were beholden to him for his support, was instrumental in Bennett's
> getting
> the Columbia River Treaty with the USA through a 'minority' government
> Federal Parliament.
>
> So, while he could always claim to the 'genuine' Socreds that he was
> doing
> his best to further their cause federally, where 'monetary' changes would
> have to be made, actually, it was they who were really doing more to
> further
> his aims provincially. In an area that had very little to do with
> traditional 'Social Credit'. Except we got all the dams on our portion of
> the Columbia River 'free', courtesy of the US taxpayer! Was he a
> serious
> ''Social Crediter" in reality? Or like your Mr. Manning, did he favour
> "Social Credit if necessary, but not necessarily "Social Credit." ? We can
> only speculate.
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 2:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] debt is simply a financial tool
>
>
>> Joe -
>>
>> Thanks for the voice of experience. The trouble about Social Credit in
>> politics is precisely that "the people get the government they deserve",
> and
>> if they don't want "funny money", the votes don't come in. Quebec was the
>> province where Social Credit was sold most effectively, by Louis Even and
>> Real Caouette, but even there, the steam ran out, and the movement
>> morphed
>> in the end into the Quebec separatist movement.
>>
>> I thought you might be interested in an evaluation of Social Credit's
>> decline in Alberta, written by the former Provincial Treasurer, Ted
> Hinman.
>> To me, it seems as if the Manning family found genuine Social Credit
>> unsaleable, and morphed the Provincial support into the "Reform" party
> under
>> Preston - which asked for every sort of reform except monetary reform!
>>
>> In fairness, we also have to remember that Candian Provincial governments
>> are constrained by the Candian constitution from dealing with Banking and
>> Finance, which are Federal fields of activity. The Alberta Treasury
> Branches
>> are about as far as the Alberta Government could go in challenging the
>> existing financial system. They are still a (very successful) anomaly in
> the
>> banking field.
>>
>>
>> Martin Hattersley
>> 5929 - 189 St.,
>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>>
>> e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2007 7:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] debt is simply a financial tool
>>
>>
>> > Hi Wally,
>> >
>> > Thanks for an excellent post on the 'failings' of 'political Party'
> Social
>> > Credit here and in Alberta, and on the subject heading..
>> >
>> > If I might elaborate a little more on the experience in BC. You
>> > wrote:-
>> > "The B. C.
>> > "Social Credit" Government gave miniscule lip-service to Social Credit
>> > but
>> > appeared to either know, or care, little about genuine Social Credit
>> > policy. Perhaps they thought it was just a pipe-
>> > dream? But perhaps a useful one for getting electoral support?"
>> >
>> > I don't believe there WAS any widespread understanding of 'genuine'
> Social
>> > Credit policy here at that time, (1952). Though doubtless some of the
>> > long
>> > time, more 'genuine' Social Crediters running for office tried to
> engender
>> > some.
>> >
>> > Since several, including, I believe, the ''campaign Leader'', Alberta
>> > 'import' Rev. Hansell, were long time 'Douglasites.' Nearly all of
>> > those
>> > people failed to win election in the ridings they sought to represent,
>> > however. Though many did stay active in the background of BC Social
>> > Credit
>> > for a long time afterwards.
>> >
>> > Amongst the bulk of those running for office, and their supporters,
>> > "Social
>> > Credit" was seen, and often 'sold', more as a way to get
> 'interest-free'
>> > money, primarily for Government, than 'debt-free' money for consumers.
>> >
>> > Mostly though, because we had a 'single transferable ballot' in that
>> > election, the Socreds got in because they were most people's, including
>> > the
>> > 'socialists', second choice. And there was no clear 'first choice'
> winner.
>> >
>> > In the minds of those running, and the public voting, as in the minds
>> > of
>> > many 'political Party' Socreds today here and in other countries,
>> > "interest"
>> > was the great evil.
>> >
>> > This was why Bennett made such a big thing of his Government's move
>> > to
>> > ''stop borrowing''. To ''free the Government from the clutches of the
>> > rapacious Bankers". To ''balance the budget", or, if possible, run a
>> > 'surplus' to build up the bank account, and save on paying further
>> > 'usury'.
>> >
>> > That was the perception of "Social Credit" created, and one that's
>> > long
>> > endured. Even amongst the present followers of the now miniscule BC
>> > Social
>> > Credit "Party".
>> >
>> > It was, however, also a fair bit more complicated than that. BC Social
>> > Credit, unlike in Alberta, was not elected initially, nor in any of the
>> > elections subsequently over its first 20 years in power, with a
> commanding
>> > majority of the popular vote.
>> >
>> > To seek a 'mandate' based on a conception that few understood, and
>> > those
>> > that did had failed to adequately convey to the electorate, or
>> > alternately,
>> > that electorate had 'rejected', would've been political suicide.
>> >
>> > The 'public' didn't overhwelmingly embrace the idea here, even the
>> > 'distorted' version Bennett offered, because, I believe, the 'culture'
> and
>> > background of the Province is far different from that of Alberta.
>> >
>> > 'Socialism' was far deeper rooted here, and there was a widespread
> belief
>> > that the "government" should "do things for you". Rather than enabling
>> > you
>> > to "do things for yourself."
>> >
>> > While Alberta got the "Populists" as the American frontier closed, we
> got
>> > the "Socialists" from western Montana and the Idaho panhandle mining
>> > regions. Then very definitely the 'hotbeds' of American radical
>> > Labour.
>> >
>> > Couple that with the 'British' working-class 'Labour' types who manned
>> > much
>> > of the industry in the larger Coastal cities, a dose of eastern
>> > European
>> > 'anarchists', and others from Scandinavia and Germany who had
>> > experience
>> > with 'socialist' movements in those countries, and put them all into
>> > what's
>> > been described often as the "Company" Province, (since much of our
>> > industry
>> > here was very capital intensive, even early on), and you didn't exactly
>> > get
>> > the most 'favourable' seedbed for Social Credit.
>> >
>> > Even a dedicated, 'genuine' Social Credit administration would've had
>> > problems in a situation like that. The great failing, in my opinion,
> was
>> > not in the way Bennett governed. He gave the people largely what they
>> > wanted. And delivered it very efficiently. "That is moral which works
>> > best."
>> >
>> > But he either forgot, or never really knew, after his administration
> had
>> > achieved a high level of Provincial development, just how to
>> > effectively
>> > deal with 'inflation'. At that juncture, a more 'genuine' Social Credit
>> > might well have been 'politically' saleable. Especially since there
>> > was
> a
>> > widespread dislike of the Federal government prevalent here at that
> time.
>> >
>> > Why he didn't attempt to go that way, I could only speculate. And my
>> > guess
>> > is he was getting old, and despite his 'financial' innovativeness,
>> > couldn't
>> > ever make a complete break from 'orthodoxy'.
>> >
>> > Joe
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> > You're subscribed to this list with the email
>> > hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> > For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>> >
>> >
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>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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>> You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
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>
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