| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again | | Date: | Wednesday, July 11, 2007 08:08:42 (+1200) | | From: | Peter <cymric @.......nz>
|
| In reply to: | Message 4915 (written by Martin Hattersley) |
Thanks Martin, but it isnt so simle to me yet. I will answer below quotes
from you-
It's quite simple, Peter.
"Banks create money to cover their running expenses (including losses from
bad loans) by way of a debit to their profit and loss account, but this is
not money floating in thin air. Like all bank created money, it is a loan
that has to be repaid."
I can see how an internal only means can be made of a special account that
may be related shall we say to Reserves from wich accounting figures are
taken ( which if released to the public would be new money) if any balance
is not forthcoming from trading to pay expenses ( which I find very hard to
imagine banks would ever require in the first place. And as you say this
accounting figure must be repaid to the account it was taken from and if it
doesnt then it might reduce reserves by that amount- which is likewise
highly unlikely. It is paid back, surely, only if the public pay the bank
costs and profit margins, otherwise it will snowball sucking reserves or
some other 'assset' into the daily accounts and out to the public paying
accounts/wages.
It all appears to be totally internal to me and thus no basis to claim that
it in fact is new money released into the community ( to pay the interest)
since it ultimately must be paid for by the community as costs passed on.
"You are quite right to point our that the bank gets income from the charges
it makes for keeping accounts, as well as the interest it chages on loans.
But this income is required so that the Bank can balance its books.
Otherwise, it is doing business at a loss, which ultimately ends in
bankruptcy."
I dont see how the books wouldnt balance given their incomes and it would
certainly mean that their reserves are not taken into account to suit their
own designed policy. It is beyond my ken how they could run at a loss,
which is therefore a 'right' of all legitimate businesses. All businesses
suffer bad debts and are claimed as an expense reducing taxable incomes,
though this may vary from country to country regards what Banks can do in
this issue.
It seems to me that the practice of convenient accounting practice inside
banks and the issue of supposedly releasing new money into the community
equal to the interest so it can be paid are very seperate and you are
answering the first issue. My concern is the second issue. It still rates
in my estimation equal to the theory that banks lend deposits ( savings)
which the general public believe.
Peter
Martin Hattersley
5929 - 189 St., NW
EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
(780)483-5442
jmartinh@shaw.ca
e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>I expected that banks like every other business would be paying their way
>from their incomes and naturally interest is part of that. But it has been
>put that they create new credit ( 'income' in this case) to pay overheads
>equal to interest they are charging. That isnt paying out of income at
>all. If they are creation 'money' to pay their bills then why has bank
>charges in the last ten years gone up by several hundred percent in
>somecases and take it all back, how is the interest actually covered as
>claimed?
> When ever one reads about the source of the money supply no one ever
> mentions this special creation of money equal to all the interest of the
> banking system. How come, because it must be a huge amount.
> If it is true as Douglas describes it, that banks keep money short for
> their own interests then this allegation they are making sure the public
> have the money to pay the interest must have started after Douglas' time
> since he would have mentioned it when he pointed out that interest wasnt
> the big issue.
> Peter.
>
>
> ----- Original Messsage -----
> From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 4:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>
>
>> Peter -
>>
>> Banks do pass on their costs, just like other businesses. The costs of
>> staff, premises equipment and profit have to be matched through the
>> interest rates that they charge to their borrowers.
>>
>> It's an entirely different cycle from the creation and destruction of
>> credit which is the other feature of banking.
>>
>> How else would you expect it to be?
>>
>> Martin Hattersley
>> 5929 - 189 St., NW
>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>> (780)483-5442
>> jmartinh@shaw.ca
>> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>>
>>
>>> Businesses may borrow on pay day, depending on their cash flows, but I
>>> dont think banks need to borrow because of cashflow rates are slow or
>>> intermittant.
>>> Can anyone quote banking practice references that banks are so public
>>> spirited as claimed?
>>> I ask again, are banks the only businesses that dont pass on their costs
>>> as all businesses do?
>>> Peter
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 6:52 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>>>
>>>
>>>> Per -
>>>>
>>>> "A bank manufactures credit, just as a steel plant manufactures steel."
>>>>
>>>> So when payday is due for bank employees, the bank writes cheques on
>>>> itself which are accepted by the employees as money. These are charged
>>>> against its profit and loss account. That account is fed by the
>>>> interest that is charged to borrowers from the bank. Hopefully, even
>>>> after paying its staff and other overhead expenses, there will be
>>>> enough surplus to pay dividends to its shareholders, as well as
>>>> retaining earnings which can be used to increase
>>>> the bank's holdings of physical assets.
>>>>
>>>> Those payments that it makes to staff and shareholders, and in
>>>> acquiring physical assets, provide the dollars to the public which,
>>>> after passing through the normal processes of business, enable the
>>>> borrowers to pay interest to the bank on their loans.
>>>>
>>>> No great problem there. If you like to think of it in another way, the
>>>> bank lends to itself by creating money to meet its payroll and other
>>>> expenses, and repays that loan from the interest payments it receives
>>>> as a result of the services of its staff in making loans.
>>>>
>>>> Martin Hattersley
>>>> 5929 - 189 St., NW
>>>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>>>> (780)483-5442
>>>> e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: ""Per Almgren, Nordiska sparlån"" <info@nordspar.se>
>>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:32 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> At 12:50 2007-07-06, you wrote:
>>>>>>"The money for the interest is not created, that's my
>>>>>>beef. Sure, the debt for the interest is added to the
>>>>>>debt for the money principle but you can't say the
>>>>>>interest is 'created out of thin air' like the chips
>>>>>>are created out of thin air."
>>>>>>-----------------------------------
>>>>>>------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Again, the word is spelled p_r_i_n_c_i_PAL when
>>>>>>referring to the principal of loans. But sure it is,
>>>>>>the money for the interest is most definitely created.
>>>>>>Banking is a function of double entry accounting in a
>>>>>>creditary economy. At the beginning of T1, 10 are
>>>>>>lent, and 11 must be repaid at the beginning of T2 in
>>>>>>loan amortization and interest payments. During T1 the banks spend
>>>>>>thereby
>>>>>>creating 1 into circulation for their salaries, wages,
>>>>>>dividends and ordinary business expenses, so at the
>>>>>>beginning of T2, 11 is in circulation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you explain, in detail, how this extra 1 is spent into
>>>>> circulation without creating a corresponding debt?
>>>>>
>>>>>>The money that the banks spend is charged, as a matter of accounting,
>>>>>>against their accrued profit accounts.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the borrowers debt accounts is charged daily with the daily
>>>>> interest part of what they are supposed to pay in cash or from other
>>>>> accounts at the end of the period, but they themselves are not
>>>>> entitled to use that money at the corresponding credit accounts,
>>>>> doesn't that mean that the bank is borrowing interest-free from the
>>>>> credit accounts until the borrowers actually pay their accrued
>>>>> interest amounts? ;-)
>>>>> And what happens if the bank doesn't completely use the interest for
>>>>> payments of expenses? It may prefer to increase its liquidity (cash
>>>>> money) so it stays compatible with the increasing amounts on
>>>>> different accounts. In that case the borrowers are forced to borrow
>>>>> more to fill the difference, or they will experience a society with a
>>>>> shrinking economy!
>>>>>
>>>>>>This is allowable because by the rules of accounting profit
>>>>>>accrues contractually even if not yet received in cash receipts.
>>>>>
>>>>> But even the bank can't use money to pay with until they actually
>>>>> have got them, either from inpayments from outside or by borrowing
>>>>> internally from their customers accounts. So debt is created before
>>>>> money can be spent. That means that interest is hard to pay if you
>>>>> don't have anybody that borrows that money in advance.
>>>>> Per Almgren
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>____________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>Be a PS3 game guru.
>>>>>>Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
>>>>>>Games.
>>>>>>http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>>>You're subscribed to this list with the email info@nordspar.se
>>>>>>For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>>>>> at
>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email
>>>>> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>
>>>
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>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database:
>>> 269.10.2/891 - Release Date: 08/07/2007 6:32 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
> It's quite simple, Peter.
>
> Banks create money to cover their running expenses (including losses from
> bad loans) by way of a debit to their profit and loss account, but this is
> not money floating in thin air. Like all bank created money, it is a loan
> that has to be repaid.
>
> You are quite right to point our that the bank gets income from the
> charges it makes for keeping accounts, as well as the interest it chages
> on loans. But this income is required so that the Bank can balance its
> books. Otherwise, it is doing business at a loss, which ultimately ends in
> bankruptcy.
>
> Martin Hattersley
> 5929 - 189 St., NW
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> (780)483-5442
> jmartinh@shaw.ca
> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 1:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>
>
>>I expected that banks like every other business would be paying their way
>>from their incomes and naturally interest is part of that. But it has
>>been put that they create new credit ( 'income' in this case) to pay
>>overheads equal to interest they are charging. That isnt paying out of
>>income at all. If they are creation 'money' to pay their bills then why
>>has bank charges in the last ten years gone up by several hundred percent
>>in somecases and take it all back, how is the interest actually covered as
>>claimed?
>> When ever one reads about the source of the money supply no one ever
>> mentions this special creation of money equal to all the interest of the
>> banking system. How come, because it must be a huge amount.
>> If it is true as Douglas describes it, that banks keep money short for
>> their own interests then this allegation they are making sure the public
>> have the money to pay the interest must have started after Douglas' time
>> since he would have mentioned it when he pointed out that interest wasnt
>> the big issue.
>> Peter.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Messsage -----
>> From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 4:24 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>>
>>
>>> Peter -
>>>
>>> Banks do pass on their costs, just like other businesses. The costs of
>>> staff, premises equipment and profit have to be matched through the
>>> interest rates that they charge to their borrowers.
>>>
>>> It's an entirely different cycle from the creation and destruction of
>>> credit which is the other feature of banking.
>>>
>>> How else would you expect it to be?
>>>
>>> Martin Hattersley
>>> 5929 - 189 St., NW
>>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>>> (780)483-5442
>>> jmartinh@shaw.ca
>>> e-mail: hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 6:52 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>>>
>>>
>>>> Businesses may borrow on pay day, depending on their cash flows, but I
>>>> dont think banks need to borrow because of cashflow rates are slow or
>>>> intermittant.
>>>> Can anyone quote banking practice references that banks are so public
>>>> spirited as claimed?
>>>> I ask again, are banks the only businesses that dont pass on their
>>>> costs as all businesses do?
>>>> Peter
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Martin Hattersley" <hattersleyjm@interbaun.com>
>>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 6:52 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Per -
>>>>>
>>>>> "A bank manufactures credit, just as a steel plant manufactures
>>>>> steel."
>>>>>
>>>>> So when payday is due for bank employees, the bank writes cheques on
>>>>> itself which are accepted by the employees as money. These are charged
>>>>> against its profit and loss account. That account is fed by the
>>>>> interest that is charged to borrowers from the bank. Hopefully, even
>>>>> after paying its staff and other overhead expenses, there will be
>>>>> enough surplus to pay dividends to its shareholders, as well as
>>>>> retaining earnings which can be used to increase
>>>>> the bank's holdings of physical assets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those payments that it makes to staff and shareholders, and in
>>>>> acquiring physical assets, provide the dollars to the public which,
>>>>> after passing through the normal processes of business, enable the
>>>>> borrowers to pay interest to the bank on their loans.
>>>>>
>>>>> No great problem there. If you like to think of it in another way, the
>>>>> bank lends to itself by creating money to meet its payroll and other
>>>>> expenses, and repays that loan from the interest payments it receives
>>>>> as a result of the services of its staff in making loans.
>>>>>
>>>>> Martin Hattersley
>>>>> 5929 - 189 St., NW
>>>>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>>>>> (780)483-5442
>>>>> e-mail: jmartinh@shaw.ca
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: ""Per Almgren, Nordiska sparlån"" <info@nordspar.se>
>>>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 5:32 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] 10 can't pay 11 fallacy, again
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> At 12:50 2007-07-06, you wrote:
>>>>>>>"The money for the interest is not created, that's my
>>>>>>>beef. Sure, the debt for the interest is added to the
>>>>>>>debt for the money principle but you can't say the
>>>>>>>interest is 'created out of thin air' like the chips
>>>>>>>are created out of thin air."
>>>>>>>-----------------------------------
>>>>>>>------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Again, the word is spelled p_r_i_n_c_i_PAL when
>>>>>>>referring to the principal of loans. But sure it is,
>>>>>>>the money for the interest is most definitely created.
>>>>>>>Banking is a function of double entry accounting in a
>>>>>>>creditary economy. At the beginning of T1, 10 are
>>>>>>>lent, and 11 must be repaid at the beginning of T2 in
>>>>>>>loan amortization and interest payments. During T1 the banks spend
>>>>>>>thereby
>>>>>>>creating 1 into circulation for their salaries, wages,
>>>>>>>dividends and ordinary business expenses, so at the
>>>>>>>beginning of T2, 11 is in circulation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you explain, in detail, how this extra 1 is spent into
>>>>>> circulation without creating a corresponding debt?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The money that the banks spend is charged, as a matter of accounting,
>>>>>>>against their accrued profit accounts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the borrowers debt accounts is charged daily with the daily
>>>>>> interest part of what they are supposed to pay in cash or from other
>>>>>> accounts at the end of the period, but they themselves are not
>>>>>> entitled to use that money at the corresponding credit accounts,
>>>>>> doesn't that mean that the bank is borrowing interest-free from the
>>>>>> credit accounts until the borrowers actually pay their accrued
>>>>>> interest amounts? ;-)
>>>>>> And what happens if the bank doesn't completely use the interest for
>>>>>> payments of expenses? It may prefer to increase its liquidity (cash
>>>>>> money) so it stays compatible with the increasing amounts on
>>>>>> different accounts. In that case the borrowers are forced to borrow
>>>>>> more to fill the difference, or they will experience a society with a
>>>>>> shrinking economy!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This is allowable because by the rules of accounting profit
>>>>>>>accrues contractually even if not yet received in cash receipts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But even the bank can't use money to pay with until they actually
>>>>>> have got them, either from inpayments from outside or by borrowing
>>>>>> internally from their customers accounts. So debt is created before
>>>>>> money can be spent. That means that interest is hard to pay if you
>>>>>> don't have anybody that borrows that money in advance.
>>>>>> Per Almgren
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>____________________________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>Be a PS3 game guru.
>>>>>>>Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
>>>>>>>Games.
>>>>>>>http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>>>>You're subscribed to this list with the email info@nordspar.se
>>>>>>>For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email
>>>>>> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>>>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>>>>> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.2/890 - Release Date:
>>>>> 07/07/2007 3:26 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
>>>>> It has removed 11543 spam emails to date.
>>>>> Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> at
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>>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email cymric@xtra.co.nz
>>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email
>>>> hattersleyjm@interbaun.com
>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database:
>>>> 269.10.2/891 - Release Date: 08/07/2007 6:32 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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>>
>>
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>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
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>>
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>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database:
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>>
>
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