| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] question | | Date: | Tuesday, October 9, 2007 17:19:30 (+1300) | | From: | William Hugh McGunnigle <wmcgunn @.........nz>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5050 (written by Peter) |
Correction with respect to the decline in Britain's industrial power before
and after WW1.
Historical data confirms the following:-
1) Supplanting of Britain as the leading and most influential
industrial nation was well underway as early as 1850. The USA's industrial
output exceeded Britain by 1875 and by 1900 was about half the worlds total
industrial production. Germany was second.
2) Actual industrial output in the UK actually increased during the
1920's exceeding per 1914 figures by a substancial margin. It did not
decline in volume until after 1930, but the expansion of total world
industrial production increased at such a rate during the 1920's that the
PERCENTAGE of industrial output from Britain on a world wide basis fell.
3) Britain's industrial output only began to fall from about the 1960's.
Very slowly at first until the advent of the Thatcher government, which
relying on oil revenues to bolster the value of the pound, allowed the pound
to be overvalued on the world markets causing British manufacturers to be
squeezed out of their markets because they could not compete against lower
valued currencies. This was the real decline in British industrial capacity,
and loss of vital manufacturing skills. The USA is undergoing the same
process at present as is much of western Europe.
The validity of these facts can be verified by the knowledge that by mid
1941 the total output of war material from British industry transformed on
to a war footing had exceeded that of Germany and its allies and would
continue to do so for the rest of the war. This hardly indicates an
industrial base that had been degraded and reduced during the inter war
years.
The confusion arises because the FINANCIAL influence of the UK after
1918 was rapidly eroded by the increasing exporting zeal of the USA. Prior
to 1914 a large percentage of US industrial production had served to provide
the industrial infrastructure of the US economy. It was not until after 1918
that the USA began to flex its industrial might to monopolies international
trade. Once this occurred Britain was unable to compete because of its much
lower population base. Quite simply the UK could not match the USA in
industrial output for the international market.
I hope this clears away some of the misconceptions that have been manifest
in some of the comments on this topic.
Bill Mc Gunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
> Thanks Joe, quite interesting. I never knew about the German navy in
> China. Western Samoa was given as a trust territory for NZ to administer
> after the fall of Germany. The US has Eastern Samoa. Western Samoa is
> independant now but have NZ citizenship as of right.
>
> Douglas does say in the same chapter that the international financiers
> made Japan a first class power. I recall from elsewhere he mentioned the
> secretive lending and come across it in someone elses book as well.
> Douglas says in the same section that it was the US which pressured
> Britiain to end the Treaty with Japan in 1922. A couple of pages earlier
> he mentioned that the B of E was put under a US advisor and appears to be
> 1917. I suspect that this coinsides with the US agreeing to come into the
> war after the same international banker deligation from Britian visited
> the US which would be the fulfillment of the promise made to Lloyd George
> the new Prime Minister in 1916, whom just happned to be also the British
> Zionist organisations solicitor, that if he should spare the unsparable
> troops from the war against Germany and do service breaking up the Ottoman
> Empire to free Palestine for- you can guess, they will be repaid by US
> assistence in the war.
> Running parallel with the build up of Japan in the East was the
> destruction of British industrial power through the twenties, under the US
> advisor, using deflationary policy while the US was being built up by
> inflationary policy by the better half to replace Britain as the leading
> world power. The Third Reich was next built up. The Americans need to
> look very closely at the series of building up war machines to be used and
> then destroyed because there have been very unhealthy signs appearing
> since the year 2000.
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
>
>
>> (Peter wrote:-) "....the Bank of England lent such a huge amount of
>> credit to Japan that it was kept a secret."
>>
>> (Joe replies:-) I don't know about the Bank of England's secret lending
>> to
>> Japan, Peter, but it's plausible. Japan must have needed considerable
>> international credit to go in the short time that it did from feudal
>> state
>> to a modern, industrialised country complete with a modern,
>> well-equipped
>> military, I would think.
>>
>> There's no question pre-WW I Japan was quite useful to Britain to have as
>> an
>> ally. The Japanese directly checked Russian military expansionism in the
>> Far East and northern China by being the victors in the Russo-Japanese
>> War
>> in 1905. (With considerable covert British assistance.) Indirectly, the
>> weakening of Russia would have removed a threat from that direction
>> towards
>> British interests in India and Persia (Iran).
>>
>> After the outbreak of war in Europe in 1914 the Japanese were able to
>> wrest control over the 'sphere of influence' that Germany had established
>> in
>> China. The Germans had a substantial millitary prescence there,
>> including a
>> powerful fleet of modern warships. Evidence of the importance the
>> Kaiser
>> attached to what he reportedly stated to be Germany's most important
>> overseas possession. (Quite likely not so much for what 'goods' China
>> could
>> provide Germany, but as a substantial peace-time 'captive' outlet for
>> German manufactured goods.)
>>
>> This German Pacific Fleet based in China was considered to be a prime
>> menace
>> to British Columbia, since the British Empire's main ship-repair
>> facilities
>> in the entire Pacific were then located at Esquimalt, outside Victoria,
>> B.C.
>> Destruction of the large graving dock there, ( one of the few in the
>> world
>> that could accomodate a ship the size of the original Queen Elizabeth ~
>> and
>> did, during WW II), would have been quite a military accomplishment.
>>
>> At the outbreak of war in 1914, the Royal Canadian Navy had but one
>> obsolete cruiser to defend this facility, and the entire BC coast.
>> Fortunately, for us, the Japanese Imperial Navy quickly sent modern ships
>> to
>> take up station and defend against what was feared would be an imminent
>> attack. (Prior to that, to bolster the shamefully inadequate defences,
>> the
>> BC Government secretly purchased two submarines made for the Chilean Navy
>> from their US builders. An act completely 'ultra vires' of its
>> Constitutional powers. 'Constitutions', it would seem, CAN be
>> circumvented
>> when circumstances warrant it, and there's a clear indication of public
>> support. )
>>
>> As it turned out, the anticipated attack never came. The German Pacific
>> fleet divided, with one small group going into the Indian Ocean, where it
>> wreaked havoc on Allied shipping for quite some time. I believe some of
>> those German sailors were later captured, and interned as POWs in New
>> Zealand. Before escaping, I believe, and somehow making it back to
>> Germany.
>>
>> The main German force made for home via Cape Horn. Along the way
>> annihilating a Royal Navy task force that intercepted it off the coast of
>> Chile. The Royal Navy later turned the tables off the Falklands, and
>> removed that menace entirely.
>>
>> I believe the Japanese also sent destroyers to patrol in the
>> Mediterranean,
>> where the Austro- Hungarian Empire's Navy posed a enemy submarine threat
>> for some time.
>>
>> After the war, Hirohito was an honoured guest of King George V at the
>> Royal
>> Family's Balmoral estate, an indication of British appreciation for his
>> country's war effort, and that Japan had achieved a unique status as an
>> non-white world power. It must have been somewhat of a slap in the face
>> when their alliance was not renewed by Britain a short time later.
>>
>> I think it's quite within the realm of possibility, as Douglas indicated
>> in
>> "The Big Idea", that the influence of 'International' Finance over
>> post-war British policy had a hand in that.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
>>
>>
>>> Douglas was explaining the conflict between the prestege of character
>>> and
>>> the prestege of money power. Both Japan and Britain were the victims of
>> the
>>> latter at the expense of the former.
>>> In the early part of the century, I am not sure if it was pre-world war
>> one
>>> or immediately after that the Bank of England lent such a huge amount of
>>> credit to Japan that it was kept a secret. It would be inevitable that
>>> in
>>> the thirties Japan would have been subject to the banks directions and
>> thus
>>> the policy outside their control- doing the opposite to what Douglas
>>> would
>>> advise.
>>> This circmstance may have had an influence of Japan's decision to go to
>> war
>>> upon the US ( some neutral policy!) cutting off her oil supplies.
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
>>>
>>>
>>> > "....but gave evidence at
>>> > countless official inquiries in Great Britain, Japan,
>>> > Canada, New Zealand and Australia."
>>> >>
>>> > (Bill Ryan:-) Question: What "official inquiries" did Douglas give
>>> > evidence to in Japan and Australia?
>>> >
>>> > (Joe replies:-) I think Rowbotham might have phrased that a bit
>>> > better.
>>> >
>>> > The "official enquiries" certainly weren't "countless". At least not
>>> > if
>>> > we're using "official enquiries" in terms of Douglas's presentation
>>> > of
>>> > evidence under that designation as it applies to the various
>> Committees
>>> > he
>>> > appeared before in Ottawa, Alberta, New Zealand, and the MacMillan one
>>> > we've
>>> > been discussing most recently. There are four, by my count.
>>> >
>>> > In Japan in 1929, following the presentation of his paper at the World
>>> > Engineering Conference Douglas was attending in Tokyo, I believe it
>>> > would
>>> > have been more correct to state that he was interviewed by "officials"
>> of
>>> > that country's Finance Ministry.
>>> >
>>> > And, over the period of a week apparently, must have answered many of
>>> > their "inquiries" as to his ideas.
>>> >
>>> > I think this would most likely have been the nature of any "inquiries"
>> he
>>> > received from "officials" during his visit to Australia also.
>>> > Doubtless
>>> > there must have been "countless" conversations where various
>>> > "officials"
>>> > in
>>> > various places made their own "inquiries" regarding his ideas in
>>> > conversation with him over the years.
>>> >
>>> > It is interesting to note that Douglas, despite his evidence before
>>> > the
>>> > Alberta Agricultural Committee in 1934 where he speaks of the Japanese
>>> > using
>>> > "the reverse" of his ideas, still seems to be quite favourably
>>> > disposed
>>> > towards the Japanese.
>>> >
>>> > This is also touched on in his more 'political' writings in "The Big
>>> > Idea",
>>> > where he seems to indicate that Japan, a staunch and effective British
>>> > ally
>>> > throughout World War One from start to end, was subjected to a "loss
>>> > of
>>> > face" when their alliance was terminated after World War One.
>>> >
>>> > We have not discussed what is implied in "the reverse" of his ideas,
>>> > as
>>> > the
>>> > Japanese applied them during the pre-WWII years. Any comments on
>>> > that?
>>> >
>>> > Do you suppose "the reverse" of Douglas's ideas on national credit
>>> > also
>>> > implies the "the reverse" of his philosophy regarding the relationship
>>> > between the State and the individual as regards the Japan of that
>>> > era?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
>>> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>> > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:24 AM
>>> > Subject: [socialcredit] question
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >> The current issue of "The Social Crediter" contains
>>> >> this statement from Michael Rowbotham's book, *The
>>> >> Grip of Death*:
>>> >>
>>> >> "...Douglas was a massive political influence in his
>>> >> day, and a major figure on the world stage. He not
>>> >> only had a world-wide following, but gave evidence at
>>> >> countless official inquiries in Great Britain, Japan,
>>> >> Canada, New Zealand and Australia."
>>> >>
>>> >> Question: What "official inquiries" did Douglas give
>>> >> evidence to in Japan and Australia?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>> ____________________________________________________________________________
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>>> >>
>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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>> You're subscribed to this list with the email cymric@xtra.co.nz
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>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
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> You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
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