| Subject: | RE: [socialcredit] question | | Date: | Wednesday, October 10, 2007 04:42:29 (+0000) | | From: | John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5059 (written by Joe Thomson) |
Von Luckner was imprisoned on Soames Island in Wellington Harbour. He swam about three miles to shore and somehow managed to get out of the country.
Symbolic of the difference between NZ and Aus. He visited both a few years before WW2. Got an almost hero's welcome here, and more or less the bum's rush from the Aussies.
Regards. John R.
> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 08:44:43 -0400
> From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
>
> Many thanks, Bill (McGonnigle), for the further information. I incorrectly
> stated that the part of the German Pacific Fleet (the "Emden") that went
> into the Indian Ocean was commanded by Luckner. That should have been, as
> you stated, Captain Muller.
>
> Luckner, the "Sea Devil", commanded a merchant raider not attached to the
> German Pacific fleet. I believe it was he who was captured and interred in
> NZ, though, and later escaped.
>
> In regards to the "Lusitania", it was sunk in 1915, and though it stirred up
> great animosity in the USA at the time, the war against Germany was not
> entered until 1917, after the Kaiser announced he would use unrestricted
> submarine warfare in violation of his committment after the "Lusitania"
> sinking not to do so. That and the publication of the "Zimmerman Note", a
> diplomatic telegram from Germany's Foreign Minister to the German Ambassador
> in Mexico intercepted and decoded by British Intelligence and passed on to
> the US Government was said to have been the deciding factor.
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 12:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
>
>
> > Amplifying Joe's statement on the German colonies in the Pacific.
> > The Asiatic fleet consisted of the Heavy cruisers Scharhorst and
> > Gneisenau, and the Light cruisers Dresden Liepzig, Nurenberg and Emden.
> The
> > Admiral Von Spee commanding that fleet did not attack Canada for several
> > reasons. These were:-
> > The presence of a powerful Australian fleet including the Battlecruiser
> > Australia that would have been a formidable and highly dangerous adversary
> > even for his fleet.
> > The ambivalent attitude of the USA who would not permit coaling of his
> > fleet in US ports and bases.
> > The high possibility of the Japanese fleet blockading his fleet in
> > TingTsao (The German Base in China) to prevent interuption of Japanese
> trade
> > with Australia, NZ, the Dutch East Indies and the French colonies in
> > IndoChina, even if Japan did not directly intervene in the war.
> > The problem of coal supplies for his fleet considering that nmost of the
> > coaling depots in the Pacific were controlled by British or American
> > interests. Only Samoa (a German colony) offered coaling facilities, and it
> > was certain that this would be attacked and taken by the avaiable British
> > and colonial forces at the earliest opportunity.
> > These considerations wieghed heavily on the mind of Admiral Von Spee,
> and
> > he decided to head south via Samoa to go around Cape Horn, and break
> through
> > the Atlantic Blockade using coal supplies shipped to him by the various
> > German embassies in the Neutral countries of South America. He came to
> grief
> > when he decided to attack the radio station on the Faukland Islands
> unaware
> > that Vice Admiral Sturdee with his squadron consisting of the battle
> > cruisers Invincible and Inflexible together with 4 light cruises, a county
> > class heavy cruiser and the old battleship Canopus, were in harbour. The
> end
> > result of this confronmtation is well known to any naval historian.
> > The Only ship that did not follow this route was the Emden under the
> > command of Captain Muller. His commerce raiding expedition in the Indian
> > Ocean was a classic. He obtained his coal from the ships he captured and
> > then sank. His mistake was to attempt to destroy the radio station on
> Cocos
> > Island. This station was able to send a distress call picked up by the
> > protected cruiser HMAS Sydney. The arrival of the Sydney ended the Emdens
> > raiding because this Australian cruiser outgunned the Emden and was able
> to
> > smash the German raider with little damage to herself. The Emden was
> > scuttled on a reef, and her crew interned for the rest of the war.
> > regards
> > Bill McGunnigle
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 8:18 AM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
> >
> >
> > > (Peter wrote:-) "....the Bank of England lent such a huge amount of
> > > credit to Japan that it was kept a secret."
> > >
> > > (Joe replies:-) I don't know about the Bank of England's secret lending
> > > to
> > > Japan, Peter, but it's plausible. Japan must have needed considerable
> > > international credit to go in the short time that it did from feudal
> state
> > > to a modern, industrialised country complete with a modern,
> well-equipped
> > > military, I would think.
> > >
> > > There's no question pre-WW I Japan was quite useful to Britain to have
> as
> > > an
> > > ally. The Japanese directly checked Russian military expansionism in
> the
> > > Far East and northern China by being the victors in the Russo-Japanese
> War
> > > in 1905. (With considerable covert British assistance.) Indirectly,
> the
> > > weakening of Russia would have removed a threat from that direction
> > > towards
> > > British interests in India and Persia (Iran).
> > >
> > > After the outbreak of war in Europe in 1914 the Japanese were able to
> > > wrest control over the 'sphere of influence' that Germany had
> established
> > > in
> > > China. The Germans had a substantial millitary prescence there,
> including
> > > a
> > > powerful fleet of modern warships. Evidence of the importance the
> Kaiser
> > > attached to what he reportedly stated to be Germany's most important
> > > overseas possession. (Quite likely not so much for what 'goods' China
> > > could
> > > provide Germany, but as a substantial peace-time 'captive' outlet for
> > > German manufactured goods.)
> > >
> > > This German Pacific Fleet based in China was considered to be a prime
> > > menace
> > > to British Columbia, since the British Empire's main ship-repair
> > > facilities
> > > in the entire Pacific were then located at Esquimalt, outside Victoria,
> > > B.C.
> > > Destruction of the large graving dock there, ( one of the few in the
> world
> > > that could accomodate a ship the size of the original Queen Elizabeth ~
> > > and
> > > did, during WW II), would have been quite a military accomplishment.
> > >
> > > At the outbreak of war in 1914, the Royal Canadian Navy had but one
> > > obsolete cruiser to defend this facility, and the entire BC coast.
> > > Fortunately, for us, the Japanese Imperial Navy quickly sent modern
> ships
> > > to
> > > take up station and defend against what was feared would be an imminent
> > > attack. (Prior to that, to bolster the shamefully inadequate defences,
> > > the
> > > BC Government secretly purchased two submarines made for the Chilean
> Navy
> > > from their US builders. An act completely 'ultra vires' of its
> > > Constitutional powers. 'Constitutions', it would seem, CAN be
> > > circumvented
> > > when circumstances warrant it, and there's a clear indication of public
> > > support. )
> > >
> > > As it turned out, the anticipated attack never came. The German Pacific
> > > fleet divided, with one small group going into the Indian Ocean, where
> it
> > > wreaked havoc on Allied shipping for quite some time. I believe some of
> > > those German sailors were later captured, and interned as POWs in New
> > > Zealand. Before escaping, I believe, and somehow making it back to
> > > Germany.
> > >
> > > The main German force made for home via Cape Horn. Along the way
> > > annihilating a Royal Navy task force that intercepted it off the coast
> of
> > > Chile. The Royal Navy later turned the tables off the Falklands, and
> > > removed that menace entirely.
> > >
> > > I believe the Japanese also sent destroyers to patrol in the
> > > Mediterranean,
> > > where the Austro- Hungarian Empire's Navy posed a enemy submarine
> threat
> > > for some time.
> > >
> > > After the war, Hirohito was an honoured guest of King George V at the
> > > Royal
> > > Family's Balmoral estate, an indication of British appreciation for his
> > > country's war effort, and that Japan had achieved a unique status as an
> > > non-white world power. It must have been somewhat of a slap in the face
> > > when their alliance was not renewed by Britain a short time later.
> > >
> > > I think it's quite within the realm of possibility, as Douglas indicated
> > > in
> > > "The Big Idea", that the influence of 'International' Finance over
> > > post-war British policy had a hand in that.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
> > > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:54 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
> > >
> > >
> > >> Douglas was explaining the conflict between the prestege of character
> and
> > >> the prestege of money power. Both Japan and Britain were the victims
> of
> > > the
> > >> latter at the expense of the former.
> > >> In the early part of the century, I am not sure if it was pre-world war
> > > one
> > >> or immediately after that the Bank of England lent such a huge amount
> of
> > >> credit to Japan that it was kept a secret. It would be inevitable that
> > >> in
> > >> the thirties Japan would have been subject to the banks directions and
> > > thus
> > >> the policy outside their control- doing the opposite to what Douglas
> > >> would
> > >> advise.
> > >> This circmstance may have had an influence of Japan's decision to go to
> > > war
> > >> upon the US ( some neutral policy!) cutting off her oil supplies.
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> > >> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > >> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:23 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > "....but gave evidence at
> > >> > countless official inquiries in Great Britain, Japan,
> > >> > Canada, New Zealand and Australia."
> > >> >>
> > >> > (Bill Ryan:-) Question: What "official inquiries" did Douglas give
> > >> > evidence to in Japan and Australia?
> > >> >
> > >> > (Joe replies:-) I think Rowbotham might have phrased that a bit
> better.
> > >> >
> > >> > The "official enquiries" certainly weren't "countless". At least not
> > >> > if
> > >> > we're using "official enquiries" in terms of Douglas's presentation
> of
> > >> > evidence under that designation as it applies to the various
> > > Committees
> > >> > he
> > >> > appeared before in Ottawa, Alberta, New Zealand, and the MacMillan
> one
> > >> > we've
> > >> > been discussing most recently. There are four, by my count.
> > >> >
> > >> > In Japan in 1929, following the presentation of his paper at the
> World
> > >> > Engineering Conference Douglas was attending in Tokyo, I believe it
> > >> > would
> > >> > have been more correct to state that he was interviewed by
> "officials"
> > > of
> > >> > that country's Finance Ministry.
> > >> >
> > >> > And, over the period of a week apparently, must have answered many
> of
> > >> > their "inquiries" as to his ideas.
> > >> >
> > >> > I think this would most likely have been the nature of any
> "inquiries"
> > > he
> > >> > received from "officials" during his visit to Australia also.
> > >> > Doubtless
> > >> > there must have been "countless" conversations where various
> > >> > "officials"
> > >> > in
> > >> > various places made their own "inquiries" regarding his ideas in
> > >> > conversation with him over the years.
> > >> >
> > >> > It is interesting to note that Douglas, despite his evidence before
> the
> > >> > Alberta Agricultural Committee in 1934 where he speaks of the
> Japanese
> > >> > using
> > >> > "the reverse" of his ideas, still seems to be quite favourably
> disposed
> > >> > towards the Japanese.
> > >> >
> > >> > This is also touched on in his more 'political' writings in "The Big
> > >> > Idea",
> > >> > where he seems to indicate that Japan, a staunch and effective
> British
> > >> > ally
> > >> > throughout World War One from start to end, was subjected to a "loss
> of
> > >> > face" when their alliance was terminated after World War One.
> > >> >
> > >> > We have not discussed what is implied in "the reverse" of his ideas,
> as
> > >> > the
> > >> > Japanese applied them during the pre-WWII years. Any comments on
> that?
> > >> >
> > >> > Do you suppose "the reverse" of Douglas's ideas on national credit
> also
> > >> > implies the "the reverse" of his philosophy regarding the
> relationship
> > >> > between the State and the individual as regards the Japan of that
> > >> > era?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
> > >> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > >> > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 10:24 AM
> > >> > Subject: [socialcredit] question
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> The current issue of "The Social Crediter" contains
> > >> >> this statement from Michael Rowbotham's book, *The
> > >> >> Grip of Death*:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "...Douglas was a massive political influence in his
> > >> >> day, and a major figure on the world stage. He not
> > >> >> only had a world-wide following, but gave evidence at
> > >> >> countless official inquiries in Great Britain, Japan,
> > >> >> Canada, New Zealand and Australia."
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Question: What "official inquiries" did Douglas give
> > >> >> evidence to in Japan and Australia?
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> > >> > ________
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> > >> >> today!
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> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >>
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