|
Thanks for this, Bill (McGunnigle), and for your posts to
Peter on the Kuwait oil fires and to John on the naval operations in the
Pacific.
As regards the latter, the Royal Canadian Navy
participated late in the war by sending the cruiser HMCS Uganda to the Pacific,
where she saw action.. This ship had been involved previously in the
European theatre, and at one point had come under an attack that had blown a
substantial portion of its bow completely off. It was subsequently
sailed backwards, under its own steam, across the Atlantic to a US
shipyard to have a new bow fitted.
A friend of mine, just a young seaman then, saw
service on this ship when it was sent to the Pacific. And was wounded
in the abdomen when it was attacked by the Japanese air force "kamikazes".
It also achieved some distinction for the 'mutiny' that occurred on it while in
the Pacific.
The RN and RCN ships were apparently not ever well
equipped for the 'comfort' of their crews. The US Navy's comparable larger
ships had much better crew accomodations, and more importantly, were well
provisioned with good food. And plenty of it.
At one point in its Pacific odyssey the "Uganda" was
apparently approached by an American vessel, perhaps a supply ship, my friend
did not relate what type of ship when he told me this story several years
ago, but in any case, it was a US Navy vessel that was returning to port
and had a surplus of fresh fruits and vegetables aboard.
Its Captain hailed the "Uganda", which was going the other
way, and asked if he'd like any. These provisions would just go to waste
otherwie.
The "Ugandas" Captain apparently somewhat haughtily
declined, reacting to this generous offer almost as if he was too proud to
accept 'charity' from the US Navy.
This, apprently, in full view of the poorly
nourished "Ugandas" crew. Which did not have the same 'prideful' view of
the prospects of fresh food being an unacceptable admission that the RCN
couldn't feed its own men their commander did.
They subsequently mutinied. I don't recall the
outcome, but it apparently caused quite a stir at the time.
The US Navy went 'dry' around the time they were engaged
in the Spanish-American war, as I recall. Before that they followed the
British tradition. Only coming from a "land of plenty" the
American sailors were overdoing it a bit, and discipline was becoming hard to
maintain.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:00
PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
question
Hi Joe
You are quite correct in your assertion that the bulk of Japanese oil supplies
came from the USA prior to 1939. It was the US embargo on oil that pushed
Japan into war. The Brunei oilfields became the Japanese oil source once she
became involved in WW2. The actual oil produced by those oil-fields very
rapidly reached and exceeded prewar production. Initially this enabled Japan
to continue to prosecute the war quite successfully for some time, but
from late 1942 the relentless and successful U-boat campaign by the US
navy rapidly reduced the Japanese merchant marine, paticularly oil-tankers, to
a position that by 1944 the bulk of the Japanese fleet had been moved to
Singapore to ensure that it had access to fuel supplies. The problem facing
the Japanese by that time revolved around providing fuel for the navy and
keeping it supplied with ammunition. The former came from Brunei, and the
latter came from the Japanese homeland or Manchuria. The invasion of the
Phillipines in late 1944 produced the "last ditch" "Ten Go" operation by the
Japanese navy that resulted in the protracted naval battle of Leyte Gulf. This
was the final effort of the Japanese navy to prevent US naval incursions and
attacks on the supply lines to the Japanese homeland west of the Phillipine
Islands. That was the death knell for Japan. She was cut off from her oil
supplies in Malaysia and Indonesia, and her naval and air forces rapidly
became immobile from lack of fuel as Japan's strategic fuel reserves were used
up. I hope this clarifies some of the aspects we ahve been
discussing.
regards
Bill Mc G
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 6:33
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
question
(Peter wrote:-) Also I believe that the main
British oil supply was in Brunei, Nth Borneo which is a
sultanate.
(Joe replies:-) Oil was not discovered in Brunei
until 1929, so they wouldn't have been the major pre-war supplier
The Burmese oilfields, plus all the ancilliary refining, storage and
transportation networks were well developed and dated back to the
dawn of the 20th century.
The Burmah Oil Company Ltd. had massive
facilities at Rangoon, which supplied much of the oil needs of India, and
likely also exported to other parts of Asia, including Japan. Standard
Oil was in there too. India's oil needs in those days was
primarily for kerosene, used as lamp oil.
There was a lawsuit over the wartime
ordered destruction of Burmah Oil Co. facilities that lasted for years after
war, right up into the mid 1960's or later, if I recall
correctly. The damage done was so extensive I don't think the
Burmese oilfields ever did regain the productivity they had
pre-war.
A considerable amount of oil imported by Japan, maybe
even most of it, would have come from the USA, which had extensive oil
fields and refineries, etc., operating along the southern coast of
California then.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007
2:01 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
question
The B of E loan to Germany wasnt of the
same magnatude as the investments by Wall St.
A great reference for the latter is "Wall Street and
the rise of Hitler" by the late Anthony C Sutton, Bloomfield
Books.
I believe that Japan got most if not all its oil
from the US prior to Pearl Harbour. There was nomother way they
could have cut off the supply to Japan tipping the political balance in
Japan towards the war-hawks faction.
Also I believe that the main British oil supply was
in Brunei, Nth Borneo which is a sultanate.
I also understand that the oil well fires in Iraq
were set by British and US special forces for propaganda reasons.
In 2003 they were sent in again to make sure S.H didnt actually do it
since they were going to occupy the whole country. This
has been published in western media.
Peter
----n.- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007
5:58 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
question
(John Rawson wrote:-) I have seen clains that the
B. of E. lent Japan £35 million ab. 1935 to build its fleet. About
the time it lent Nazi Germany £50 million.
(Joe replies:-) I would take it that those
sums would have been spent in Britain, to purchase British-priced
goods. Thereby aiding the all important goal of 'full-employment',
no matter what the eventual cost.
We know Japan was deficient in tool steel, which
it had to source from abroad. Likely most of their machine tools,
(lathes, milling machines, drill presses, as well as heavier machinery ~
"things to make things with" ~ would have had to have been
imported as well.
And they did not have sufficient iron ore to run
their steel industry, but relied on imported 'scrap'. (And still
do ~ samurai swords aside, their steel is garbage. You
cannot machine it smoothly, it's full of hard spots. Even
today American steel (from Bethlehem Steel , if it can be had) is
the best. Beautiful stuff to work with.)
Also the Japanese would have had to buy all their
petroleum, as everything moved from being coal powered to oil powered.
At that time they'd have been sourcing that from the USA,
the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia), or the British. Who controlled
the major oilfield in Asia then, in Burma. (The facilities that
were set ablaze and destroyed by the retreating British Army just
before Rangoon fell to the Japanese~ Saddam wasn't the first to use
those tactics! The British based Burmah Oil Company, Ltd., wanted
compensation for their losses from the British government after the
war. I don't know whether they ever got it.)
I would imagine pre-war Japan had a constantly
growing need to accumulate enough 'foreign exchange' to purchase what it
needed to try to maintain itself as a world-class power. Small
wonder they would try to use their own 'national credit' internally
by rather unorthodox methods if that was the means to their desired
end.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007
12:47 AM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit]
question
I have seen clains that the B. of E. lent Japan £35
million ab. 1935 to build its fleet. About the time it lent Nazi
Germany £50 million.
Unfortunately, the usual Socred lack of
documentation of sources prevails.
Regards. John R.
> Date: Sun, 7 Oct
2007 15:18:19 -0400
> From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
>
> (Peter wrote:-)
"....the Bank of England lent such a huge amount of
> credit to
Japan that it was kept a secret."
>
> (Joe replies:-) I
don't know about the Bank of England's secret lending to
>
Japan, Peter, but it's plausible. Japan must have needed
considerable
> international credit to go in the short time that
it did from feudal state
> to a modern, industrialised country
complete with a modern, well-equipped
> military, I would
think.
>
> There's no question pre-WW I Japan was quite
useful to Britain to have as an
> ally. The Japanese directly
checked Russian military expansionism in the
> Far East and
northern China by being the victors in the Russo-Japanese War
>
in 1905. (With considerable covert British assistance.) Indirectly,
the
> weakening of Russia would have removed a threat from that
direction towards
> British interests in India and Persia
(Iran).
>
> After the outbreak of war in Europe in 1914
the Japanese were able to
> wrest control over the 'sphere of
influence' that Germany had established in
> China. The Germans
had a substantial millitary prescence there, including a
>
powerful fleet of modern warships. Evidence of the importance the
Kaiser
> attached to what he reportedly stated to be Germany's
most important
> overseas possession. (Quite likely not so much
for what 'goods' China could
> provide Germany, but as a
substantial peace-time 'captive' outlet for
> German
manufactured goods.)
>
> This German Pacific Fleet based
in China was considered to be a prime menace
> to British
Columbia, since the British Empire's main ship-repair
facilities
> in the entire Pacific were then located at
Esquimalt, outside Victoria, B.C.
> Destruction of the large
graving dock there, ( one of the few in the world
> that could
accomodate a ship the size of the original Queen Elizabeth ~
and
> did, during WW II), would have been quite a military
accomplishment.
>
> At the outbreak of war in 1914, the
Royal Canadian Navy had but one
> obsolete cruiser to defend
this facility, and the entire BC coast.
> Fortunately, for us,
the Japanese Imperial Navy quickly sent modern ships to
> take
up station and defend against what was feared would be an
imminent
> attack. (Prior to that, to bolster the shamefully
inadequate defences, the
> BC Government secretly purchased two
submarines made for the Chilean Navy
> from their US builders.
An act completely 'ultra vires' of its
> Constitutional powers.
'Constitutions', it would seem, CAN be circumvented
> when
circumstances warrant it, and there's a clear indication of
public
> support. )
>
> As it turned out, the
anticipated attack never came. The German Pacific
> fleet
divided, with one small group going into the Indian Ocean, where
it
> wreaked havoc on Allied shipping for quite some time. I
believe some of
> those German sailors were later captured, and
interned as POWs in New
> Zealand. Before escaping, I believe,
and somehow making it back to
> Germany.
>
> The
main German force made for home via Cape Horn. Along the way
>
annihilating a Royal Navy task force that intercepted it off the coast
of
> Chile. The Royal Navy later turned the tables off the
Falklands, and
> removed that menace entirely.
>
>
I believe the Japanese also sent destroyers to patrol in the
Mediterranean,
> where the Austro- Hungarian Empire's Navy posed
a enemy submarine threat
> for some time.
>
> After
the war, Hirohito was an honoured guest of King George V at the
Royal
> Family's Balmoral estate, an indication of British
appreciation for his
> country's war effort, and that Japan had
achieved a unique status as an
> non-white world power. It must
have been somewhat of a slap in the face
> when their alliance
was not renewed by Britain a short time later.
>
> I
think it's quite within the realm of possibility, as Douglas indicated
in
> "The Big Idea", that the influence of 'International'
Finance over
> post-war British policy had a hand in
that.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
From: "Peter" <cymric@xtra.co.nz>
> To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Sunday, October 07,
2007 3:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] question
>
>
> > Douglas was explaining the conflict between the
prestege of character and
> > the prestege of money power.
Both Japan and Britain were the victims of
> the
> >
latter at the expense of the former.
> > In the early part of
the century, I am not sure if it was pre-world war
> one
>
> or immediately after that the Bank of England lent such a huge
amount of
> > credit to Japan that it was kept a secret. It
would be inevitable that in
> > the thirties Japan would have
been subject to the banks directions and
> thus
> > the
policy outside their control- doing the opposite to what Douglas
would
> > advise.
> > This circmstance may have had
an influence of Japan's decision to go to
> war
> >
upon the US ( some neutral policy!) cutting off her oil
supplies.
> > Peter
> >
> > ----- Original
Message -----
> > From: "Joe Thomson"
<thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> > To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, October
07, 2007 12:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
question
> >
> >
> > > "....but gave
evidence at
> > > countless official inquiries in Great
Britain, Japan,
> > > Canada, New Zealand and
Australia."
> > >>
> > > (Bill Ryan:-)
Question: What "official inquiries" did Douglas give
> > >
evidence to in Japan and Australia?
> > >
> >
> (Joe replies:-) I think Rowbotham might have phrased that a bit
better.
> > >
> > > The "official enquiries"
certainly weren't "countless". At least not if
> > > we're
using "official enquiries" in terms of Douglas's presentation
of
> > > evidence under that designation as it applies to
the various
> Committees
> > > he
> > >
appeared before in Ottawa, Alberta, New Zealand, and the MacMillan
one
> > > we've
> > > been discussing most
recently. There are four, by my count.
> > >
> >
> In Japan in 1929, following the presentation of his paper at the
World
> > > Engineering Conference Douglas was attending
in Tokyo, I believe it
> > > would
> > > have
been more correct to state that he was interviewed by
"officials"
> of
> > > that country's Finance
Ministry.
> > >
> > > And, over the period of
a week apparently, must have answered many of
> > > their
"inquiries" as to his ideas.
> > >
> > > I
think this would most likely have been the nature of any
"inquiries"
> he
> > > received from "officials"
during his visit to Australia also. Doubtless
> > > there
must have been "countless" conversations where various
"officials"
> > > in
> > > various places made
their own "inquiries" regarding his ideas in
> > >
conversation with him over the years.
> > >
> >
> It is interesting to note that Douglas, despite his evidence
before the
> > > Alberta Agricultural Committee in 1934
where he speaks of the Japanese
> > > using
> >
> "the reverse" of his ideas, still seems to be quite favourably
disposed
> > > towards the Japanese.
> >
>
> > > This is also touched on in his more 'political'
writings in "The Big
> > > Idea",
> > > where
he seems to indicate that Japan, a staunch and effective
British
> > > ally
> > > throughout World War
One from start to end, was subjected to a "loss of
> > >
face" when their alliance was terminated after World War One.
>
> >
> > > We have not discussed what is implied in
"the reverse" of his ideas, as
> > > the
> > >
Japanese applied them during the pre-WWII years. Any comments on
that?
> > >
> > > Do you suppose "the reverse"
of Douglas's ideas on national credit also
> > > implies
the "the reverse" of his philosophy regarding the relationship
>
> > between the State and the individual as regards the Japan of
that era?
> > >
> > >
> > > -----
Original Message -----
> > > From:
<william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
> > > To:
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday,
October 06, 2007 10:24 AM
> > > Subject: [socialcredit]
question
> > >
> > >
> > >> The
current issue of "The Social Crediter" contains
> > >>
this statement from Michael Rowbotham's book, *The
> >
>> Grip of Death*:
> > >>
> > >>
"...Douglas was a massive political influence in his
> >
>> day, and a major figure on the world stage. He not
>
> >> only had a world-wide following, but gave evidence
at
> > >> countless official inquiries in Great
Britain, Japan,
> > >> Canada, New Zealand and
Australia."
> > >>
> > >> Question: What
"official inquiries" did Douglas give
> > >> evidence
to in Japan and Australia?
> > >>
> >
>>
> > >>
> > >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
>
> > ________
> > >> Shape Yahoo! in your own
image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
> > >
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>
> >>
> > >>
> > >>
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