| Subject: | RE: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook | | Date: | Thursday, December 20, 2007 06:32:41 (+0000) | | From: | John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5154 (written by Joe Thomson) |
Joe, obviously the reference is to the Price (?Just Price) Discount proposal.
I find it quite incredible that, if it is to be given this degree of importance, nobody from Douglas on appears to have explained exactly how it could work. It has come across two ways: 1. As a "Just Price Discount" the payment of which would be contingent on prices being reduced, i.e. it would act as a price control mechanism, or 2. as a general subsidy of all prices no matter how they were charged. (Lets not worry about the side theory of a subsidy being paid out of taxation, I am using the term in the pure sense.)
Then we might have an explanation of how the former idea could operate without an army of public servants to set the price levels for every item in every district in each country, or alternatively how the second could operate in an conomy where there was financial demand for all goods and services without simply subsidising runaway demand inflation through profiteering? Do you inagine all retailers would be as honest as you? Wouldn't even you be tempted to raise your prices a little to what you felt gave you a fair return?
Regards. John R.
> Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 20:58:00 -0500
> From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>
> Thanks, Martin. I wouldn't expect "any experiments that have taken place
> before Douglas to be able to make use of his techniques." That would be
> expecting too much, indeed. But what about after Douglas?
>
> In looking for something else, I came across this passage from Douglas in
> "The Development of World Dominion". It's numbered 120, on page 98 of that
> book, and dated, Dec. 17, 1949. Which is when I believe it first appeared
> in TSC. It states:-
>
> "Probably not many of our readers see Mr. Manning's paper "The Canadian
> Social Crediter", but for the benefit of those overseas who do we may issue
> a note of warning against the technical inaccuracies which are beginning to
> reinforce its politics. For instance, the Keynesian fallacy adopted by Mr.
> Vincent Vickers that "spending new money into existence" is a cure for the
> flaw in the price system is being rather subtly substituted for the
> application of new money to the reduction of prices AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE.
>
> " "Time" is one of those subjects that seems to offer great difficulties to
> most people, but it does not appear too much to ask for the consideration of
> the difference between, say, paying out new money for a hydro-electric
> scheme which will "sell" nothing for five years, and paying out the same
> amount of money to reduce the cost of power.
>
> " Of course, the international finance groups have no objection whatsoever
> to the former course ~ it is almost as good a method of raising prices and
> promoting loans as having a good war.
>
> "The most charitable, and probably in the main, correct explanation of the
> disappearance of everything but the name of Social Credit from the Alberta
> Government is that its executives have entirely "lost the thread of the
> story"; that beyond wishing to retain office, they have no policy."
>
> I find that passage quite interesting, in that aside from any differences
> between the ASCP and Douglas, he states quite clearly that "spending new
> money into existence" as many so-called 'Social Credit' Parties, and others,
> have advocated and still advocate, "as a cure for the flaw in the price
> system" is a Keynesian fallacy. Do you think it's a 'fallacy', Martin, or
> was Douglas all wrong?
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>
>
> > Joe -
> > For a precedent that I think holds water, look at the Giro of Venice,
> which
> > lasted for 600 years using nothing but "money of account", which actually
> > kept its value better than gold. The Venice of the middle ages was one of
> > the great trading cities of the world.
> >
> > I think it's a bit much to expect any experiments that have taken place
> > before Douglas to be able to make use of his techniques. All that we can
> > claim for them is that, even if not perfect, they were a better way of
> > handling the money supply situation that what we "enjoy" at the present
> > time.
> >
> > Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> > EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> > Phone (780) 483-5442
> > e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > (John Rawson wrote:-) So the whole reform constitutional argument is
> > based on the clause "To coin money"? It could be claimed logically that,
> > since coinage was the only form of money then, this was intended to cover
> > all money?
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) But it wasn't the only form of 'money' then, John.
> >
> > (John Rawson:-) I note again your reaction to the Guernsey story, but
> you
> > have never given hard facts for your attitude. So far there appears to be
> > more evidence for this event than against.
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) That story was thoroughly vetted on here, or the
> > predecessor list, quite some time ago. The ''States Notes", if I recall
> > correctly from what was determined in examining the issue then, were
> > redeemed by import duties. They weren't 'debt-free' money.
> >
> > (John Rawson:-) After all, why should anyone invent such a happening in
> > such an unusual place otherwise?
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) There was a lot of propaganda put forth by various
> > 'monetary reformers', John. BC's own G. G McGeer, a former Vancouver
> Mayor,
> > who was later a MLA, a MP, and finally a Senator, was one latter day one.
> > He was aided and abetted by still others who'd previously created 'facts'
> > out of fiction to further their own ends. The myth might grow and grow,
> > but it's still myth.
> >
> > (John Rawson wrote:-) And would you argue that the actions of New
> > Zealand's first Labour Government in funding much of infrastructure, state
> > housing for homeless, and the dairy industry with Reserve Bank credit at
> 1%
> > is a myth?
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) They 'primed the pump' with deficit financing. That's
> > all they did. It relieved unemployment, and stopped the deflationary
> spiral
> > that you were in.
> >
> > In a deflation it's hard to sell anything other than essentials, for
> why
> > would you want to buy anything today if you felt you could get it cheaper
> > tomorrow? And when prices have to be lowered below financial cost to move
> > existing product, there's no inducement to produce any more.
> >
> > So your government turned that around, and when prices started to come
> > up, then there's an inducement to buy before they go higher. It's a
> quick
> > fix, but it doesn't really solve the problem. And when it's carried on
> for
> > any length of time you'll get an 'inflation' that'll negate its benefits.
> > It is a crummy substitute for Social Credit properly applied.
> >
> >
> >
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