| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook | | Date: | Friday, December 21, 2007 10:09:44 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <jmartinh @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5162 (written by Wallace Klinck) |
Hi, Wally -
I'm quite likely mistaken in putting the Kelso support into BC rather than
Alberta. But as I recall at that time, there was quite a lot of interest in
both Provinces in distributing equity in investments to the general public,
so as to give them some stake in the income producing capital of the
province. Not a bad idea, though it was easily abused, but not really the
same as a National Dividend.
Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
Phone (780) 483-5442
e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wallace Klinck" <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
I understand that during its declining and disintegrating schismatic
years the Alberta "Social Credit" League invited Kelso representation
at one of its annual conventions not too long before the Party was
voted out of office, Norman Kurland from New York being the, or one of
the, principal Kelso speakers. I was not aware of similar action by
the BC "Social Credit" Party. I wonder, Martin, if you might be
confusing the two situations. Can you verify, or elaborate on, any
association between the Party in B.C. and the Kelso advocates?"
Sincerely
Wally
On 20-Dec-07, at 6:59 PM, Joe Thomson wrote:
> Hello Martin,
>
> I'm afraid you've got me when you wrote, "...when the BC Social
> Credit Party
> started going for the Kelso Plan."
>
> The only thing that comes to mind is the 5 free BCRIC shares that Bill
> Bennett's government handed out to each of us. Is that what you
> meant? Or
> was that in reference to something else?
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>
>
>> Hi, Joe -
>>
>> What you talk about reminds me so much of when the BC Social Credit
>> Party
>> started going for the Kelso Plan, and, of course, the Mannings in
>> Alberta
>> started thinking in terms of "political realignment" - on the basis
>> that
>> Provincially, monetary reform was not a possibility.
>>
>> I find myself going back to Chapter I of the "Protocols of Zion" -
>> that
>> democracy inevitably over time degenerates into mob rule, governed
>> by the
>> "force and make believe" of those behind the scenes. Pericles ends
>> up with
>> Cleon, or Peter Lougheed with Ralph Klein.
>>
>> That still leaves us with the problem of getting Social Credit ideas
>> adopted, which may best be done by getting the public as a whole to
>> understand what is going on. I see some hope in a growing concern
>> for the
>> environment, in the Internet as a (so far) uncensored way of mass
>> communication, and in the very obvious troubles of the banking
>> industry at
>> the present time over credit defaults.
>>
>> What I feel Social Credit doesn't have at the present time is a
>> clear and
>> brief (sorry, Wally) explanation of what is wrong, and what might
>> be done
>> about it, and from that angle, I believe Richard Cook is making
>> some very
>> valuable contributions.
>>
>> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>> Phone (780) 483-5442
>> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 6:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Martin. I wouldn't expect "any experiments that have taken
>> place
>> before Douglas to be able to make use of his techniques." That
>> would be
>> expecting too much, indeed. But what about after Douglas?
>>
>> In looking for something else, I came across this passage from
>> Douglas in
>> "The Development of World Dominion". It's numbered 120, on page 98
>> of
> that
>> book, and dated, Dec. 17, 1949. Which is when I believe it first
> appeared
>> in TSC. It states:-
>>
>> "Probably not many of our readers see Mr. Manning's paper "The
>> Canadian
>> Social Crediter", but for the benefit of those overseas who do we may
> issue
>> a note of warning against the technical inaccuracies which are
>> beginning
> to
>> reinforce its politics. For instance, the Keynesian fallacy
>> adopted by
> Mr.
>> Vincent Vickers that "spending new money into existence" is a cure
>> for the
>> flaw in the price system is being rather subtly substituted for the
>> application of new money to the reduction of prices AT THE TIME OF
> PURCHASE.
>>
>> " "Time" is one of those subjects that seems to offer great
>> difficulties
> to
>> most people, but it does not appear too much to ask for the
>> consideration
> of
>> the difference between, say, paying out new money for a hydro-
>> electric
>> scheme which will "sell" nothing for five years, and paying out the
>> same
>> amount of money to reduce the cost of power.
>>
>> " Of course, the international finance groups have no objection
>> whatsoever
>> to the former course ~ it is almost as good a method of raising
>> prices and
>> promoting loans as having a good war.
>>
>> "The most charitable, and probably in the main, correct explanation
>> of the
>> disappearance of everything but the name of Social Credit from the
>> Alberta
>> Government is that its executives have entirely "lost the thread of
>> the
>> story"; that beyond wishing to retain office, they have no policy."
>>
>> I find that passage quite interesting, in that aside from any
>> differences
>> between the ASCP and Douglas, he states quite clearly that
>> "spending new
>> money into existence" as many so-called 'Social Credit' Parties, and
> others,
>> have advocated and still advocate, "as a cure for the flaw in the
>> price
>> system" is a Keynesian fallacy. Do you think it's a 'fallacy',
>> Martin,
> or
>> was Douglas all wrong?
>>
>> Joe
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 6:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>>
>>
>>> Joe -
>>> For a precedent that I think holds water, look at the Giro of
>>> Venice,
>> which
>>> lasted for 600 years using nothing but "money of account", which
> actually
>>> kept its value better than gold. The Venice of the middle ages was
>>> one
> of
>>> the great trading cities of the world.
>>>
>>> I think it's a bit much to expect any experiments that have taken
>>> place
>>> before Douglas to be able to make use of his techniques. All that
>>> we can
>>> claim for them is that, even if not perfect, they were a better
>>> way of
>>> handling the money supply situation that what we "enjoy" at the
>>> present
>>> time.
>>>
>>> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
>>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>>> Phone (780) 483-5442
>>> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
>>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:03 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (John Rawson wrote:-) So the whole reform constitutional
>>> argument is
>>> based on the clause "To coin money"? It could be claimed logically
> that,
>>> since coinage was the only form of money then, this was intended to
> cover
>>> all money?
>>>
>>> (Joe replies:-) But it wasn't the only form of 'money' then, John.
>>>
>>> (John Rawson:-) I note again your reaction to the Guernsey
>>> story, but
>> you
>>> have never given hard facts for your attitude. So far there
>>> appears to
> be
>>> more evidence for this event than against.
>>>
>>> (Joe replies:-) That story was thoroughly vetted on here, or the
>>> predecessor list, quite some time ago. The ''States Notes", if I
>>> recall
>>> correctly from what was determined in examining the issue then, were
>>> redeemed by import duties. They weren't 'debt-free' money.
>>>
>>> (John Rawson:-) After all, why should anyone invent such a
>>> happening
> in
>>> such an unusual place otherwise?
>>>
>>> (Joe replies:-) There was a lot of propaganda put forth by various
>>> 'monetary reformers', John. BC's own G. G McGeer, a former
>>> Vancouver
>> Mayor,
>>> who was later a MLA, a MP, and finally a Senator, was one latter day
> one.
>>> He was aided and abetted by still others who'd previously created
> 'facts'
>>> out of fiction to further their own ends. The myth might grow and
> grow,
>>> but it's still myth.
>>>
>>> (John Rawson wrote:-) And would you argue that the actions of New
>>> Zealand's first Labour Government in funding much of infrastructure,
> state
>>> housing for homeless, and the dairy industry with Reserve Bank
>>> credit at
>> 1%
>>> is a myth?
>>>
>>> (Joe replies:-) They 'primed the pump' with deficit financing.
> That's
>>> all they did. It relieved unemployment, and stopped the
>>> deflationary
>> spiral
>>> that you were in.
>>>
>>> In a deflation it's hard to sell anything other than essentials,
>>> for
>> why
>>> would you want to buy anything today if you felt you could get it
> cheaper
>>> tomorrow? And when prices have to be lowered below financial cost
>>> to
> move
>>> existing product, there's no inducement to produce any more.
>>>
>>> So your government turned that around, and when prices started to
> come
>>> up, then there's an inducement to buy before they go higher.
>>> It's a
>> quick
>>> fix, but it doesn't really solve the problem. And when it's
>>> carried on
>> for
>>> any length of time you'll get an 'inflation' that'll negate its
> benefits.
>>> It is a crummy substitute for Social Credit properly applied.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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