| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook | | Date: | Friday, December 21, 2007 20:32:13 (-0500) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5165 (written by Martin Hattersley) |
(Martin wrote:-) My recollection was that Socreds in BC went after the
Kelso plan, which
involved the wide distribution of dividend paying shares, as an alternative
to the National Dividend, which was not within the legislative powers of a
Provincial government.
(Joe replies:-) Not as I recall. Was that prior to 1972, in the WAC
Bennett years?. What the "Socreds" here went after then were balanced
budgets, some very creative accounting, (which actually made considerable
sense), keeping the cost of 'government' itself from getting out of control,
(under WAC Bennett, anyways), and never ending 'growth'.
The only thing I'm aware of that might be construed as slightly 'Kelsoist',
(and especially in the way it finally ended up for most of the
shareholders!) was the experiment in ''people's capitalism'' with the BCRIC
shares. That was in Bill Bennett's time as Premier.
The idea did have merit, and had it been handled a bit differently would
probably have worked quite well,. But maybe, so far as Bill Bennett's
government was concerned, it was just one way to unload a problem they
couldn't 'politically' afford to deal with any other way.
> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 6:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>
>
> Hello Martin,
>
> I'm afraid you've got me when you wrote, "...when the BC Social Credit
Party
> started going for the Kelso Plan."
>
> The only thing that comes to mind is the 5 free BCRIC shares that Bill
> Bennett's government handed out to each of us. Is that what you meant?
Or
> was that in reference to something else?
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
>
>
> > Hi, Joe -
> >
> > What you talk about reminds me so much of when the BC Social Credit
Party
> > started going for the Kelso Plan, and, of course, the Mannings in
Alberta
> > started thinking in terms of "political realignment" - on the basis that
> > Provincially, monetary reform was not a possibility.
> >
> > I find myself going back to Chapter I of the "Protocols of Zion" - that
> > democracy inevitably over time degenerates into mob rule, governed by
the
> > "force and make believe" of those behind the scenes. Pericles ends up
with
> > Cleon, or Peter Lougheed with Ralph Klein.
> >
> > That still leaves us with the problem of getting Social Credit ideas
> > adopted, which may best be done by getting the public as a whole to
> > understand what is going on. I see some hope in a growing concern for
the
> > environment, in the Internet as a (so far) uncensored way of mass
> > communication, and in the very obvious troubles of the banking industry
at
> > the present time over credit defaults.
> >
> > What I feel Social Credit doesn't have at the present time is a clear
and
> > brief (sorry, Wally) explanation of what is wrong, and what might be
done
> > about it, and from that angle, I believe Richard Cook is making some
very
> > valuable contributions.
> >
> > Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> > EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> > Phone (780) 483-5442
> > e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 6:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Martin. I wouldn't expect "any experiments that have taken
place
> > before Douglas to be able to make use of his techniques." That would
be
> > expecting too much, indeed. But what about after Douglas?
> >
> > In looking for something else, I came across this passage from Douglas
in
> > "The Development of World Dominion". It's numbered 120, on page 98 of
> that
> > book, and dated, Dec. 17, 1949. Which is when I believe it first
> appeared
> > in TSC. It states:-
> >
> > "Probably not many of our readers see Mr. Manning's paper "The Canadian
> > Social Crediter", but for the benefit of those overseas who do we may
> issue
> > a note of warning against the technical inaccuracies which are beginning
> to
> > reinforce its politics. For instance, the Keynesian fallacy adopted by
> Mr.
> > Vincent Vickers that "spending new money into existence" is a cure for
the
> > flaw in the price system is being rather subtly substituted for the
> > application of new money to the reduction of prices AT THE TIME OF
> PURCHASE.
> >
> > " "Time" is one of those subjects that seems to offer great difficulties
> to
> > most people, but it does not appear too much to ask for the
consideration
> of
> > the difference between, say, paying out new money for a hydro-electric
> > scheme which will "sell" nothing for five years, and paying out the same
> > amount of money to reduce the cost of power.
> >
> > " Of course, the international finance groups have no objection
whatsoever
> > to the former course ~ it is almost as good a method of raising prices
and
> > promoting loans as having a good war.
> >
> > "The most charitable, and probably in the main, correct explanation of
the
> > disappearance of everything but the name of Social Credit from the
Alberta
> > Government is that its executives have entirely "lost the thread of the
> > story"; that beyond wishing to retain office, they have no policy."
> >
> > I find that passage quite interesting, in that aside from any
differences
> > between the ASCP and Douglas, he states quite clearly that "spending new
> > money into existence" as many so-called 'Social Credit' Parties, and
> others,
> > have advocated and still advocate, "as a cure for the flaw in the price
> > system" is a Keynesian fallacy. Do you think it's a 'fallacy', Martin,
> or
> > was Douglas all wrong?
> >
> > Joe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2007 6:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
> >
> >
> > > Joe -
> > > For a precedent that I think holds water, look at the Giro of Venice,
> > which
> > > lasted for 600 years using nothing but "money of account", which
> actually
> > > kept its value better than gold. The Venice of the middle ages was one
> of
> > > the great trading cities of the world.
> > >
> > > I think it's a bit much to expect any experiments that have taken
place
> > > before Douglas to be able to make use of his techniques. All that we
can
> > > claim for them is that, even if not perfect, they were a better way of
> > > handling the money supply situation that what we "enjoy" at the
present
> > > time.
> > >
> > > Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> > > EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> > > Phone (780) 483-5442
> > > e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> > > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 6:03 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Article by Richard Cook
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > (John Rawson wrote:-) So the whole reform constitutional argument
is
> > > based on the clause "To coin money"? It could be claimed logically
> that,
> > > since coinage was the only form of money then, this was intended to
> cover
> > > all money?
> > >
> > > (Joe replies:-) But it wasn't the only form of 'money' then, John.
> > >
> > > (John Rawson:-) I note again your reaction to the Guernsey story,
but
> > you
> > > have never given hard facts for your attitude. So far there appears
to
> be
> > > more evidence for this event than against.
> > >
> > > (Joe replies:-) That story was thoroughly vetted on here, or the
> > > predecessor list, quite some time ago. The ''States Notes", if I
recall
> > > correctly from what was determined in examining the issue then, were
> > > redeemed by import duties. They weren't 'debt-free' money.
> > >
> > > (John Rawson:-) After all, why should anyone invent such a
happening
> in
> > > such an unusual place otherwise?
> > >
> > > (Joe replies:-) There was a lot of propaganda put forth by various
> > > 'monetary reformers', John. BC's own G. G McGeer, a former Vancouver
> > Mayor,
> > > who was later a MLA, a MP, and finally a Senator, was one latter day
> one.
> > > He was aided and abetted by still others who'd previously created
> 'facts'
> > > out of fiction to further their own ends. The myth might grow and
> grow,
> > > but it's still myth.
> > >
> > > (John Rawson wrote:-) And would you argue that the actions of New
> > > Zealand's first Labour Government in funding much of infrastructure,
> state
> > > housing for homeless, and the dairy industry with Reserve Bank credit
at
> > 1%
> > > is a myth?
> > >
> > > (Joe replies:-) They 'primed the pump' with deficit financing.
> That's
> > > all they did. It relieved unemployment, and stopped the deflationary
> > spiral
> > > that you were in.
> > >
> > > In a deflation it's hard to sell anything other than essentials,
for
> > why
> > > would you want to buy anything today if you felt you could get it
> cheaper
> > > tomorrow? And when prices have to be lowered below financial cost to
> move
> > > existing product, there's no inducement to produce any more.
> > >
> > > So your government turned that around, and when prices started to
> come
> > > up, then there's an inducement to buy before they go higher. It's a
> > quick
> > > fix, but it doesn't really solve the problem. And when it's carried
on
> > for
> > > any length of time you'll get an 'inflation' that'll negate its
> benefits.
> > > It is a crummy substitute for Social Credit properly applied.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are
at
> > > http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> > > You're subscribed to this list with the email jmartinh@shaw.ca
> > > For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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