Hello to you all,
My name is Alasdair Thompson from Auckland, New Zealand. It’s
about 30 years since I read CH Douglas and at least 15 years since I was particularly
active in promoting the change he advocated. I did this as a member of the NZ
Social Credit Political League (and its successor), as an office holder in the
organisation and as a candidate for election on a few occasions.
I subsequently concluded that Douglas adherents (those that
understood him) were and are great in talking to each other about it ( and
apparently still are…by the way this is not a criticism) .Those that got
involved in a Social Credit political party , in order to attract voters,
variously came from a whole range of different backgrounds and disillusionment from
the political left and the right. I was from the right in the sense I support
freedom of choice and personal responsibility and private enterprise wherever
there is no market failure. Public enterprise in my book is best dealing with
things that people agree they want achieved or invested in but the private
sector declines to so invest. I am also a socialist to some extent because I
believe society needs to care for those who NEED our support whether that be
permanently or for short durations. But that where my socialistic instinct end.
I also believe that the most successful societies are those
which are best educated across the whole spectrum.
Many Social Credit supporters think that it the privately owned banking
system and interest charges are the problem. They are fixated on the
issue that banks create money when they lend it and charge interest thereon.
Thank God they do create it over and over because we need the efficient
exchange accounting system and funding new investment they provide. Whether a government
institution does this or a shareholder owned one does it is not the issue. If
their special position is allowing banks to make exhorbitant profits then that
doesn’t involve stopping them doing what they do so well…it may
require a degree of regulation, but that is another issue. Interest charges In
themselves are not the issue.
To me the issue is ……are we collectively able to
purchase and consume all the consumer goods and services we wish to consume
from those produced/supplied in a period i.e. do our collective incomes
(after saving and de-saving) in a period allow us to buy and consume what is
available if we want to? If not then we need to do something about that.
Douglas made a number of suggestions. The ones always used though are the Keynesian
ones, such as reducing taxes or in answer to the likes of the sub prime induced
Credit Crunch…central banks encourage the banking system to make more and
cheaper credit available… that mostly works provided borrowers have
confidence to use it…but right now confidence is lowish. Look at
Japan, despite cheap credit at just 1% interest for some years now , the Japanese
growth rate has been very low.
Secondly do we all have enough to consume? and thirdly how do we
finance new capital investment, R&D and technology solutions to raise
living standards, especially of those lower than our own? As for the last
issue, banks nowadays do a good job funding new capital investment if the
business case looks good, i.e. there is a good market. People utilise
their savings for this purpose too. Trying to tell them not to wouldn’t
work so why try to do that. Just be aware that saving and de-saving reduces and
increases spendable incomes with a period
It all comes back to, is there a gap to be filled (A+B Theorem)
and if there is, fix it. I have always thought using a compensated price
mechanism when we have a tax system which could be used to boost
spendable incomes only introduced another level of bureaucracy.
To conclude I acknowledge the western world has an
efficient banking system, creating credit and canceling it upon repayment in a
much more responsive way (maybe too responsive) than was the case 40years ago
and earlier. On the other hand we have more government intervention in free
world trade than we had when world trade first began to flourish.
Any shortfall between Incomes and prices of goods and
services that people want to buy at a price that covers all costs including
profit in a period, should be fixed and the converse is also true. It seems to
me that the income taxation system is one that already exists that could be
used to achieve the balance sought. AS to how to calculate the size of the Gap…I
think I’d leave that to others but if anyone has the formula, please let
me know.
Best wishes to you all for 2008.
Alasdair
Thompson
Chief
Executive
Employers' & Manufacturers' Association (Northern) Inc.
Private
Bag 92066, Auckland, 1030, New Zealand
DDI: +64
9 367 0911
Cell:
+64 274 982 024
From: Wallace Klinck
[mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, 8 January 2008 2:53 p.m.
To: william_b_ryan@yahoo.com
Cc: socialcredit@elistas.com; Constance Fogal; Wendy Forrest; Joe
Thomson; Diane Boucher; Don Martin; Jim Schroeder; Michael Stephen Lane; Barry
& Theresa Dunford; Robert E. Klinck; Bill Daly; Frances Hutchinson; Martin
Hattersley; Therese Tardif; Don Auchterlonie; Victor Bridger; Henry Raynel;
Anne Goss; Richard Cook; Betty Luks
Subject: [socialcredit] Re: [Cap_contacts] Fwd: Banking and the Canadian
Government - revised
Many thanks, Bill, for taking the time to bring this
inadvertent but serious error in my message to Connie and Wendy of the Canadian
Action Party. Joe Thomson also advised me of this matter and you will
all have received messages with my corrections which are made also in the
message below by striking out the word "appreciation" and inserting
in red the appropriate word "depreciation."
It is unfortunate that so many monetary
"reformers" seem to fall into the socialist (or "statist")
mode in advocating changes to monetary policy. While this is no doubt
innocent in some cases where these advocates have not had the benefit of
exposure to the fundamental philosophical precepts which Douglas emphasized, I
am sure that it is a conscious attempt by others to hijack and thereby
neutraliize the Social Credit movement with centralizing monetary
technique in the interests of state pre-eminence in the guidance of society.
We simply must counter these tendencies, innocent or deliberate, wherever
they are to be found.
Yes, certainly, let's discuss the matters you mention below
on the list where it will be available to more interested parties.
Briefly, if I understand your terminology (which you might
elaborate) correctly, the "falling price level" would certainly
be "effective" and not "nominal" in that it would be a
realistic representation of the actual achieved reduction of physical cost of
production, evaluated in monetary terms, over any given or chosen accountancy
period. This would be calculated with due regard for the subtraction and
addition to production occurring in the selected period, valued in money terms.
Additions would refer to increased production resulting from the
utilization of resources, the use of which creates a price value. Subtractions
would refer to consumed or depreciated physical assets in the same manner.
All additions to capital values would be written up in the National
Credit Account and available from that account which would be written
down with regard to credits withdrawn to assist consumption by means of
the National (Consumer) Dividend and Compensated Price. As I
understand the matter, the "Just" Price embraces both the
National Dividend and Compensated Price which, combined, would constitute an
effective increased purchasing-power in the two forms and, effectively, a
lowering of overall financial prices and also a distribution of effective
financial access to consumer goods, irrespective of income earned. I
would like to hear also what others, including Vic Bridger, might care to offer
to this discussion. I look forward to whatever further comments or
analysis you might wish to offer.
Wally, I just noted a typographical error in your
email from earlier today:
"...the consumer is charged, properly, with capital
appreciation while, quite improperly, not credited
with capital appreciation."
Which I think should read:
"...the consumer is charged, properly, with capital
depreciation while, quite improperly, not credited
with capital appreciation."
This requires explanation and clarification, which
I'll be glad to discuss in further detail on the
socialcredit list.
Surely we're not referring to capital appreciation in
the ordinary accounting sense, but perhaps in the
sense of the "communal capital" deriving from the
social heritage and increment of association, which
determine in part productive capacity. Making it
possible for the public to more fully draw upon the
communal capital, which is naturally increasing, is
one of the justifications for the national dividend in
its various forms. The analogy is to the corporate
dividend drawing upon the capital of the firm.
The second point I would like to discuss is the
contention that the national dividend (and retail
discount, etc.) would result necessarily in a falling
price level. I do not believe that the falling price
level would be nominal but effective, in terms of
personal income.
Bill
--- Wallace Klinck <wmklinck@shaw.ca>
wrote:
Thanks for the video Web links below, Connie and
Wendy.
While the videos review, with varying accuracy,
certain important aspects of banking history and
banking procedures, especially in the Canadian
context, they tend to overlook the critical factors
which should be considered in the crafting of a proper
monetary system. By advocating the creation of money
solely by the Bank of Canada they appear to be
promoting a centralized form of credit control which
seems not really that dissimilar to that which was
utilized by both the communist and fascist states--the
central economic policy of which was "full-employment'
as a social policy promoted and/or administered by the
State. The video commentators tend to regard interest
as the central economic evil while completely failing
to deal with the more fundamental error in national
cost accountancy wherein the consumer is charged,
properly, with capital appreciation depreciation while, quite
improperly, not credited with capital appreciation.
This accountancy error is the
primary cause of escalating unrepayable debt, the
elimination of which latter would obviate problems
attributed to interest. Where the consumer is
empowered to liquidate all financial costs of current
production with adequate current financial income,
there is no cost carry-over charges against future
cycles of production. Where no accumulating consumer
debt is necessary the "problem" of interest becomes
non-existent. The remedial measures advocated by the
video presenters stress the need for state control and
issue of credit issued as debt, albeit at low or zero
rates of interest. The important issue, which they
overlook, is the decentralization of credit control
which must properly be achieved through the issue,
from outside the price, or costing, system, of
consumer credits which are not registered as debt
and--which are distributed to all citizens as
consumers as a beneficial share in the communal
capital. Through use of such consumer credit to
compensate prices at point of retail, this would
result in a falling price level and would be in
keeping with the natural law of cost which is the
national ratio of consumption divided by the national
rate of production. A portion of the required
consumer credit issued directly to each citizen as an
addition to income regardless of whether or not the
individual is receiving earned income would recognize
the entitlement of all to an inalienable inheritance
in the Cultural Heritage of mankind--based upon the
reality that labor factors of production are,
relatively, being replaced by non-labor factors.
Sincerely
Wally Klinck
On 6-Jan-08, at 10:33 PM, Constance Fogal wrote:
Cap_contacts list: For removal send email
Cap_contacts-unsubscribe@falstaff.canadianactionparty.ca
--
CANADIAN ACTION PARTY/PARTI ACTION CANADIENNE
LEADER, CONSTANCE (Connie) FOGAL
www.canadianactionparty.ca
Telephone Connie Fogal at: 604 872 2128
----- Forwarded message from Wendy Forrest
<forrwen@gmail.com> -----
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:38:47 -0500
From: Wendy Forrest <forrwen@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Wendy Forrest <forrwen@gmail.com>
Subject: Banking and the Canadian Government -
revised
To: forrwen@gmail.com
Woo Hoo: Hooray for Gerald Brutus!
Gerald has done this awesome video on the Bank of
Canada and has just
updated it further. Of course he mentions CAP so
its a great
resource for
campaiging. He also includes a bit of Bill Abram
from his wonderful
The
Crime of the Canadian Banking System. He also has
a plug for Paul
Grignon's
excellent Money as Debt. Please forward widely!
Banking and the Canadian Government
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=WPSoQfumzQ0
For those of you who haven't seen those other
videos yet -
Bill Abram
Part 1 The Crime of the Canadian Banking System
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=O8Zl1Wax8MI&feature=related
Part 2 The Great Canadian Experiment
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=9yYEFuN2v08&feature=related
Part 3 Gerald G. McGeer: A True Canadian Hero
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=zB7GbM1OgzA&feature=related
Money as Debt
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
Check out the related videos - there's one of me
at Toronto City
Council in
the summer regarding the new proposed taxes,
including a municipal
land
transfer tax. They didn't listen to me, but I
think I had some
influence on
the fact that first time buyers are now receiving
a rebate
municipally &
provincially as well for all homes, not just new
homes. I guess
that's
something...
--
Wendy Forrrest
Toronto Davenport candidate:
www.wendyforrest.com/capdavenport
--
If you don't stand for something, you will fall
for everything -
Anonymous
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can
change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has - Margaret Mead
----- End forwarded message -----
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