eListas Logo
   The Most Complete Mailing Lists, Groups and Newsletters System on the Net
Home > My Lists > socialcredit > Messages

 Message Index 
 Messages from 5143 to 5202 
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
RE: Re: Article by John G R
Re: Re: Article by Martin H
Re: Re: Article by Martin H
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
RE: Re: Article by John G R
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by William
Re: Re: Article by Wallace
Re: John Rawson's Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by Martin H
Re: Re: Article by Martin H
RE: Re: Article by John G R
RE: John Rawson's John G R
Re: John Rawson's Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by William
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
RE: John Rawson's John G R
RE: Re: Article by John G R
RE: Re: Article by John G R
Re: John Rawson's Martin H
Re: John Rawson's Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by William
RE: John Rawson's John G R
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
Re: John Rawson's Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by William
Newly scanned docu Wallace
Re: John Rawson's Martin H
Re: Re: Article by Joe Thom
Re: Re: Article by Martin H
Food For Thought Joe Thom
Re: Food For Thoug William
Re: Food For Thoug Joe Thom
Re: Fwd: Banking a william_
Re: Fwd: Banking a Wallace
Re: Re: Fwd: Banki Joe Thom
RE: Re: Fwd: Banki Alasdair
Re: Re: Fwd: Banki Wallace
Letter published b Wallace
Re: Fwd: Banking a Wallace
Re: Letter publish William
Re: Fwd: Banking a william_
Re: Fwd: Banking a Joe Thom
Re: Fwd: Banking a Martin H
Re: Fwd: Banking a Joe Thom
Re: Fwd: Banking a Joe Thom
Re: Fwd: Banking a Wallace
Regarding "interes Myro Ash
Re: Re: Fwd: Banki William
Re: Fwd: Banking a Joe Thom
RE: Regarding "int John G R
The Truth: Recessi Eric Enc
Re: Replying to Pe Myro Ash
RE: Re: Replying t John G R
RE: Regarding "int John G R
RE: Re: Replying t Myro Ash
 << Prev. 60 | Next 60 >>
Main page    Messages | Post | Files | Database | Polls | Events | My Preferences
Message 5194     < Previous | Next >
Reply to this message
Subject:RE: [socialcredit] Re: [Cap_contacts] Fwd: Banking and the Canadian Government - revised
Date:Tuesday, January 8, 2008  17:40:31 (+1300)
From:Alasdair Thompson <alasdair.thompson @......nz>
In reply to:Message 5192 (written by Wallace Klinck)

Hello to you all,

My name is Alasdair Thompson from Auckland, New Zealand. It’s about 30 years since I read CH Douglas and at least 15 years since I was particularly active in promoting the change he advocated. I did this as a member of the NZ Social Credit Political League (and its successor), as an office holder in the organisation and as a candidate for election on a few occasions.


I subsequently concluded that Douglas adherents (those that understood him) were and are great in talking to each other about it ( and apparently still are…by the way this is not a criticism) .Those that got involved in a Social Credit political party , in order to attract voters, variously came from a whole range of different backgrounds and disillusionment from the political left and the right. I was from the right in the sense I support freedom of choice and personal responsibility and private enterprise wherever there is no market failure. Public enterprise in my book is best dealing with things that people agree they want achieved or invested in but the private sector declines to so invest. I am also a socialist to some extent because I believe society needs to care for those who NEED our support whether that be permanently or for short durations. But that where my socialistic instinct end.


I also believe that the most successful societies are those which are best educated across the whole spectrum.


Many Social Credit supporters think that it the privately owned banking system and interest  charges are the problem. They are fixated on the issue that banks create money when they lend it and charge interest thereon. Thank God they do create it over and over because we need the efficient exchange accounting system and funding new investment they provide. Whether a government institution does this or a shareholder owned one does it is not the issue. If their special position is allowing banks to make exhorbitant profits then that doesn’t involve stopping them doing what they do so well…it may require a degree of regulation, but that is another issue. Interest charges In themselves are not the issue.


To me the issue is ……are we collectively able to purchase and consume all the consumer goods and services we wish to consume from those produced/supplied  in a period i.e. do our collective incomes (after saving and de-saving) in a period allow us to buy and consume what is available if we want to? If not then we need to do something about that. Douglas made a number of suggestions. The ones always used though are the Keynesian ones, such as reducing taxes or in answer to the likes of the sub prime induced Credit Crunch…central banks encourage the banking system to make more and cheaper credit available… that mostly works provided borrowers have confidence to use it…but right now confidence is lowish.  Look at Japan, despite cheap credit at just 1% interest for some years now , the Japanese growth rate has been very low.


Secondly do we all have enough to consume? and thirdly how do we finance  new capital investment, R&D and technology solutions to raise living standards, especially of those lower than our own?  As for the last issue, banks nowadays do a good job funding new capital investment if the business case looks good, i.e. there is a good market.  People utilise their savings for this purpose too. Trying to tell them not to wouldn’t work so why try to do that. Just be aware that saving and de-saving reduces and increases spendable incomes with a period


It all comes back to, is there a gap to be filled (A+B Theorem) and if there is, fix it. I have always thought using a compensated price mechanism when we have a tax system which  could be used to boost spendable incomes only introduced another level of bureaucracy.


To conclude I acknowledge  the western world has an efficient banking system, creating credit and canceling it upon repayment in a much more responsive way (maybe too responsive) than was the case 40years ago and earlier. On the other hand we have more government intervention in free world trade than we had when world trade first began to flourish.

Any shortfall  between Incomes and prices of goods and services that people want to buy at a price that covers all costs including profit in a period, should be fixed and the converse is also true. It seems to me that the income taxation system is one that already exists that could be used to achieve the balance sought. AS to how to calculate the size of the Gap…I think I’d leave that to others but if anyone has the formula, please let me know.


Best wishes to you all for 2008.



Alasdair Thompson

Chief Executive
Employers' & Manufacturers' Association (Northern) Inc.

Private Bag 92066, Auckland, 1030, New Zealand

DDI: +64 9 367 0911

Cell: +64 274 982 024



From: Wallace Klinck [mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, 8 January 2008 2:53 p.m.
To: william_b_ryan@yahoo.com
Cc: socialcredit@elistas.com; Constance Fogal; Wendy Forrest; Joe Thomson; Diane Boucher; Don Martin; Jim Schroeder; Michael Stephen Lane; Barry & Theresa Dunford; Robert E. Klinck; Bill Daly; Frances Hutchinson; Martin Hattersley; Therese Tardif; Don Auchterlonie; Victor Bridger; Henry Raynel; Anne Goss; Richard Cook; Betty Luks
Subject: [socialcredit] Re: [Cap_contacts] Fwd: Banking and the Canadian Government - revised


Many thanks, Bill, for taking the time to bring this inadvertent but serious error in my message to Connie and Wendy of the Canadian Action Party.   Joe Thomson also advised me of this matter and you will all have received messages with my corrections which are made also in the message below by striking out the word "appreciation" and inserting in  red the appropriate word "depreciation."  


It is unfortunate that so many monetary "reformers" seem to fall into the socialist (or "statist") mode in advocating changes to monetary policy.  While this is no doubt innocent in some cases where these advocates have not had the benefit of exposure to the fundamental philosophical precepts which Douglas emphasized, I am sure that it is a conscious attempt by others to hijack and thereby neutraliize  the Social Credit movement with centralizing monetary technique in the interests of state pre-eminence in the guidance of society.  We simply must counter these tendencies, innocent or deliberate, wherever they are to be found.


Yes, certainly, let's discuss the matters you mention below on the list where it will be available to more interested parties.


Briefly, if I understand your terminology (which you might elaborate)  correctly, the "falling price level" would certainly be "effective" and not "nominal" in that it would be a realistic representation of the actual achieved reduction of physical cost of production, evaluated in monetary terms, over any given or chosen accountancy period.  This would be calculated with due regard for the subtraction and addition to production occurring in the selected period, valued in money terms.  Additions would refer to increased production resulting from the utilization of resources, the use of which creates a price value.  Subtractions would refer to consumed or depreciated physical assets in the same manner.  All additions to capital values would be written up in the National Credit Account and available from that account  which would be written down with regard to credits withdrawn to assist consumption by means of the National (Consumer) Dividend and Compensated Price.  As I  understand the matter, the "Just" Price embraces both the National Dividend and Compensated Price which, combined, would constitute an effective increased purchasing-power in the two forms and, effectively, a lowering of overall financial prices and also a distribution of effective financial access to consumer goods, irrespective of income earned.  I would like to hear also what others, including Vic Bridger, might care to offer to this discussion.  I look forward to whatever further comments or analysis you might wish to offer.






On 7-Jan-08, at 10:10 AM, william_b_ryan@yahoo.com wrote:

Wally, I just noted a typographical error in your
email from earlier today:

"...the consumer is charged, properly, with capital
appreciation while, quite improperly, not credited
with capital appreciation."

Which I think should read:

"...the consumer is charged, properly, with capital
depreciation while, quite improperly, not credited
with capital appreciation."

This requires explanation and clarification, which
I'll be glad to discuss in further detail on the
socialcredit list.

Surely we're not referring to capital appreciation in
the ordinary accounting sense, but perhaps in the
sense of the "communal capital" deriving from the
social heritage and increment of association, which
determine in part productive capacity.  Making it
possible for the public to more fully draw upon the
communal capital, which is naturally increasing, is
one of the justifications for the national dividend in
its various forms.  The analogy is to the corporate
dividend drawing upon the capital of the firm.

The second point I would like to discuss is the
contention that the national dividend (and retail
discount, etc.) would result necessarily in a falling
price level.  I do not believe that the falling price
level would be nominal but effective, in terms of
personal income.


--- Wallace Klinck <wmklinck@shaw.ca> wrote:

Thanks for the video Web links below, Connie and

While the videos review, with varying accuracy,
certain important aspects of banking history and
banking procedures, especially in the Canadian
context, they tend to overlook the critical factors
which should be considered in the crafting of a proper
monetary system.  By advocating the creation of money
solely by the Bank of Canada they appear to be
promoting a centralized form of credit control which
seems  not really that dissimilar to that which was
utilized by both the communist and fascist states--the
central economic policy of which was "full-employment'
as a social policy promoted and/or administered by the
State.  The video commentators tend to regard interest
as the central economic evil while completely failing
to deal with the more fundamental error in national
cost accountancy wherein the consumer is charged,
properly, with capital appreciation depreciation while, quite
improperly, not credited with capital appreciation.
This accountancy error is the
primary cause of escalating unrepayable debt, the
elimination of which latter would obviate problems
attributed to interest.  Where the consumer is
empowered to liquidate all financial costs of current
production with adequate current financial income,
there is no cost carry-over charges against future
cycles of production.  Where no accumulating consumer
debt is necessary the "problem" of interest becomes
non-existent.  The remedial measures advocated by the
video presenters stress the need for state control and
issue of credit issued as debt, albeit at low or zero
rates of interest.  The important issue, which they
overlook, is the decentralization of credit control
which must properly be achieved through the issue,
from outside the price, or costing, system, of
consumer credits which are not registered as debt
and--which are distributed to all citizens as
consumers as a beneficial share in the communal
capital.  Through use of such consumer credit to
compensate prices at point of retail, this would
result in a falling price level and would be in
keeping with the natural law of cost which is the
national ratio of consumption divided by the national
rate of production.  A portion of the required
consumer credit issued directly to each citizen as an
addition to income regardless of whether or not the
individual is receiving earned income would recognize
the entitlement of all to an inalienable inheritance
in the Cultural Heritage of mankind--based upon the
reality that labor factors of production are,
relatively, being replaced by non-labor factors.

Wally Klinck


On 6-Jan-08, at 10:33 PM, Constance Fogal wrote:


Cap_contacts list: For removal send email









Telephone Connie Fogal at: 604 872 2128


----- Forwarded message from Wendy Forrest

<forrwen@gmail.com> -----

  Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:38:47 -0500

  From: Wendy Forrest <forrwen@gmail.com>

Reply-To: Wendy Forrest <forrwen@gmail.com>

Subject: Banking and the Canadian Government -


    To: forrwen@gmail.com


Woo Hoo: Hooray for Gerald Brutus!


Gerald has done this awesome video on the Bank of

Canada and has just

updated it further.  Of course he mentions CAP so

its a great  

resource for

campaiging.  He also includes a bit of Bill Abram

from his wonderful  


Crime of the Canadian Banking System. He also has

a plug for Paul  


excellent Money as Debt.  Please forward widely!


Banking and the Canadian Government




For those of you who haven't seen those other

videos yet -


Bill Abram


Part 1 The Crime of the Canadian Banking System





Part 2 The Great Canadian Experiment





Part 3 Gerald G. McGeer: A True Canadian Hero






Money as Debt





Check out the related videos - there's one of me

at Toronto City  

Council in

the summer regarding the new proposed taxes,

including a municipal  


transfer tax.  They didn't listen to me, but I

think I had some  

influence on

the fact that first time buyers are now receiving

a rebate  

municipally  &

provincially as well for all homes, not just new

homes.  I guess  





Wendy Forrrest

Toronto Davenport candidate:




If you don't stand for something, you will fall

for everything -  




Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,

committed citizens can  


the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever

has -  Margaret Mead


----- End forwarded message -----

Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.


Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
You're subscribed to this list with the email alasdair.thompson@ema.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit


CAUTION : If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender. This email may contain privileged or confidential information intended only for the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying or distribution of this information by you is prohibited. Any views expressed by the sender of this message do not necessarily reflect the views of Employers & Manufacturers Association (Northern) Inc.


Services:  HomeList Hosting ServicesIndustry Solutions
Your Account:  Sign UpMy ListsMy PreferencesStart a List
General:  About UsNewsPrivacy PolicyNo spamContact Us

eListas Seal
eListas is a registered trademark of eListas Networks S.L.
Copyright © 1999-2006 AR Networks, All Rights Reserved
Terms of Service