| Subject: | RE: [socialcredit] Re: [GJM] Replying to Peter Challen | | Date: | Saturday, January 19, 2008 03:21:50 (+0000) | | From: | John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5210 (written by Myro Ashenopolitus) |
Just one point again. During the course of our Royal Commission (1950's) the term "out of nothing" was fully supported by bank representatives. It is an accepted accurate statement, not a "spin".
Regards.
John R.
> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:36:52 -0800
> From: new_economics@yahoo.com
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: [socialcredit] Re: [GJM] Replying to Peter Challen
>
> Rodney, my replies are inserted below:
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Dear Ashenopolitus,
>
> It is always a pleasure to correspond with educated,
> open-minded and expert people like your good self.
>
> 1. Where is the whopper when I say the banking system
> creates money out of nothing and you say exactly the
> same?
>
> [Reply: The fact that banks create money out of
> nothing was not one of your whoppers that I cited. But
> I do object to the nefarious spin you put on the term.
> "Out of nothing" derives from the Latinized legal
> term, "ex nihilo," which means contractual in this
> context. Modern creditary money is contractual,
> calling for future performance. When we sit down to
> write a contract, any contract, we will agree on terms
> and conditions that did not exist before we sat down.
> Hence, they were created "out of nothing" in the
> finalized contract that we will sign.]
> -
>
> Does your education and open-mindedness include being
> logical? Is Steven Consilio being unfair in
> implicitly accusing you of Orwellian double-think (the
> ability to hold two mutually exclusive ideas
> simultaneously)?
>
> 2. Where is the whopper when I say that the banks do
> not create enough money for the repayment of interest?
> I am sure that you can explain where in the process
> the banks create the money for the interest.
>
> [Reply: That was explained in my original posting,
> which I'll be glad to expand upon as much as you like.
> The banks as a statistical matter create more than
> enough money to pay interest back to them when they
> write checks for any purpose whatsoever without
> correspondingly debiting any bank customer's account.
> Those checks are deposited into transaction accounts
> that are liabilities of the banks, as is exactly the
> case when they extend the principal of loans. This
> process is not a mystery and is acknowledged by the
> economics profession.]
> -
>
> 3. Please display your expertise further in
> explaining your statement that, when interest is
> repaid, it is cancelled.
>
> [Reply: Because when interest is paid to the banks,
> deposit accounts held by the public are debited,
> without any corresponding credit to any accounts held
> by the public. The deposit accounts are liabilities
> of the banks to the public, which are reduced when
> payments are made to them for interest or any other
> purpose. The sum total of bank deposits held by the
> non-bank public are thereby reduced, reducing the
> quantity of money as generally defined.]
> -
>
> 4. Please also explain how banks pay their employees
> etc if the interest the banks receive is cancelled.
>
> [Reply: By writing checks, which are their
> liabilities. When those checks are deposited into
> bank accounts, the sum total of bank deposits thereby
> increase, increasing the quantity of money as
> generally defined. It's all handled by the ordinary
> rules and conventions of double entry accounting. Let
> me also comment on another point you made in the
> program, that two things are paid to the banks in
> addition to principal: administrative charge plus
> interest. Actually, the administrative charge is in
> fact interest, inasmuch as interest is defined, in the
> standard definition, as the amount paid to the banks
> in addition to principal, regardless how it is
> calculated. The three components of interest are a)
> ordinary business expense, what you call
> administrative charge; b) what is effect an insurance
> premium to cover defaulted loans, which varies by
> credit risk category; and c) profit for the financial
> services that banks supply. By far the largest amount
> collected through interest by the banks is the
> insurance premium, the next largest is business
> expense, and the smallest is the banks' profit.]
> -
>
> 5. I am fascinated by your comments on riba/interest
> and the Qu'ran. I have contact with many Islamic
> scholars and the consensus is undoubtedly that
> interest is riba and that in ancient usage 'usury'
> generally refers to riba.
>
> [Reply: The "consensus" is from the Islamic
> fundamentalists you are conferring with. The
> reformist Muslims are following the path of the
> Christian reformists of five centuries ago, who are
> going back to the original scriptures and language,
> who are finding that in regard to their moral precepts
> the Islamic scriptures are in close agreement with the
> Christian scriptures. Distortions in both
> Christianity and Islam, it appears, were made by
> closed minded and rather ignorant medieval
> interpreters, who put their own spin in distorting the
> word of God. In my earlier post I gave you a citation
> from one American reformist Muslim Internet site.]
> -
>
> The modern usage of the word 'usury' (meaning
> 'excessive interest') is another matter.
>
> [Reply: It is however more in conformity to the
> original meaning of the scriptures in both
> Christianity and Islam.]
> -
>
> 6. I am also completely fascinated by who you are and
> what interests you are (attempting) to represent.
>
> [Reply: I am amused by the conspiracy theories implied
> by the other posts, from Chris, Steve and others,
> which failed to address even a single point I made in
> my original post, as if they didn't matter. The
> propensity toward conspiracy theory seems to be a
> characteristic of the "crank" mindset. As to Bill
> Ryan, I am not Bill Ryan. I am a graduate student. I
> do know him very well, and see him almost every day,
> as he is my thesis adviser, as well as being employed
> by him as a research assistant. My involvement in
> these discussions is part of my assigned research
> project.]
> -
>
> Rodney Shakespeare
> -
>
> Sincerely, Myro
>
>
>
>
> --- Rodney Shakespeare
> <rodney.shakespeare1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Ashenopolitus,
>
> It is always a pleasure to correspond with educated,
> open-minded and expert people like your good self.
>
> 1. Where is the whopper when I say the banking
> system creates money out of nothing and you say
> exactly the same? Does your education and
> open-mindedness include being logical? Is Steven
> Consilio being unfair in implictly accusing you of
> Orwellian double-think
> (the ability to hold two mutually exclusive ideas
> simultaneously)?
>
> 2. Where is the whopper when I say that the banks do
> not create enough money for the repayment of interest?
> I am sure that you can explain where in the process
> the banks create the money for the interest.
>
> 3. Please display your expertise further in
> explaining your statement that, when interest is
> repaid, it is cancelled.
>
> 4. Please also explain how banks pay their employees
> etc if the interest the banks receive is cancelled.
>
> 5. I am fascinated by your comments on riba/interest
> and the Qu'ran. I have contact with many Islamic
> scholars and the consensus is undoubtedly that
> interest is riba and that in ancient usage 'usury'
> generally refers to riba. The modern usage of the
> word 'usury' (meaning 'excessive interest') is another
> matter.
>
> 6. I am also completely fascinated by who you are and
> what interests you are (attempting) to represent.
>
>
> Rodney Shakespeare
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myro Ashenopolitus" <new_economics@yahoo.com>
> To: <discussion@globaljusticemovement.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 4:40 PM
> Subject: [GJM] Replying to Peter Challen
>
>
> Unfortunately, Peter, there are some whoppers from
> both Shakespeare and Yaseen in the first half of the
> program that will turn off educated and open minded
> people to the proposed solutions.
>
> For example, Shakespeare's assertion that "one of the
> problems of creating out of nothing is that it creates
> enough money for the principal of the loan but not
> enough for the interest."
>
> And Yaseen's assertion that "the Quran condemns
> categorically usury, or interest."
>
> First, to address Shakespeare's assertion:
>
> We say that banks create money because they credit
> deposit accounts when they create loans. The ability
> and propensity to transfer deposit balances from
> person to person in transactions is what makes deposit
> accounts effectively money in today's economy. So,
> when loans are granted, money is being created. And,
> when loans are repaid, together with interest, money
> is being canceled.
>
> But there is a reciprocal monetary flow from the banks
> when they make payments for ordinary business
> expenses, salaries and wages to their employees,
> dividends to their stockholders, etc., where they also
> credit deposit account balances, which is additional
> to loans in the creation of money. This puts money
> into circulation not deriving from loans that is
> available to pay interest to the banks in payment for
> financial services rendered.
>
> Now, to Yaseen's assertion:
>
> The ancient scriptures originally written in Semitic
> languages used two words that were erroneously
> translated or interpreted as "usury."
>
> A modern Islamic scholar in the United States writes
> this:
>
>
> http://www.submission.org/islam/interest-usury.html
>
> "The Quran forbids usury, not interest. Quite a few
> states in USA have laws against usury. Usury is
> defined as excessive interest. A Dictionary defines
> usury as 'an excessive or inordinate premium for the
> use of money borrowed', 'extortionate interest', or
> 'the practice of taking exorbitant or excessive
> interest.' The Arabic language also makes distinction
> between interest (Fa'eda) and usury (Reba). The Quran
> forbids Reba or usury."
>
> Which is perfectly consistent with the modern Jewish
> and Christian perspectives on the matter:
>
> http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/jones.usury
>
> "John Calvin's letter on usury of 1545 made it clear
> that when Christ said 'lend hoping for nothing in
> return,' He meant that we should help the poor freely.
> Following the rule of equity, we should judge people
> by their circumstances, not by legal definitions.
> Humanist that he was, Calvin knew there were two
> Hebrew words translated as 'usury.' One, neshek, meant
> 'to bite'; the other, tarbit, meant 'to take
> legitimate increase.' Based on these distinctions,
> Calvin argued that only 'biting' loans were forbidden.
> Thus, one could lend at interest to business people
> who would make a profit using the money. To the
> working poor one could lend without interest, but
> expect the loan to be repaid. To the impoverished one
> should give without expecting repayment."
> -
>
> Myro
>
>
> ---------------original message-----------------
>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:23:12 +0000 From: "Peter
> Challen" <peterchallen@googlemail.com> To:
> discussion@globaljusticemovement.net Subject: Re:
> [GJM] An excellent programme
>
> I've reached the half-way stage of the programme
> recommended below and use the 'break' to add my
> recommendation to this sanguine critique of a complex
> situation - a remarkable bit of broadcasting.
>
> Peter
>
> On 10/01/2008, Rodney Shakespeare
> <rodney.shakespeare1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Dear All.
>
> Alright, I know I should not say this (because I am
> one of the speakers with Moeen Yaseen of
> Globalvision2000) but Global Money Crisis: Just Where
> Does the Buck Stop? is an excellent programme. Moeen
> is tremendous!!
>
> At last we have managed to put across on television
> some analysis of what is wrong with the global economy
> === message truncated ===
>
>
>
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