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Hello Jamie,

I can't answer your first question, but as to the last part of your second, where you wrote:-

"....why can't lending be treated like an investment, with an agreed and linked share of the use outcome as the return?",

I would say that it could be treated that way. And it seems it sometimes is. But many 'borrowers' would probably prefer it otherwise.

Many 'Social Crediters' seem to fixate their attention on the 'struggling businessman', who they believe, but for the pernicious nature of the monthly principal and interest payment, would be prosperous and happy in his work. Even though the product he produces or distributes might not even be wanted, and his efforts completely wasted.

While we often seem to overlook completely the vast majority of businesses that borrow money to provide something that IS wanted, and at a price sufficient to cover the costs. The ones who, though they may also be 'struggling', do make their payments, and a reasonable net profit for themselves besides. And look forward to the day when they'll have the loan paid off and not have to share the take with their 'friendly banker' any longer.

Would such businesses really want an 'investor', who's there in perpetuity? Or one whose increased assumption of 'risk' while he is there can only be justified by paying out an increased share of the profit to him? An increased share that then can't be put towards 'buying him out'?

Perhaps they would, and if so, do we not have various venture capital concerns that already provide this type of financing? Including here in Canada, at least, a 'government' owned Business Developmenmt Bank that will even take an equity position in a business, if the financial mangement is sound and the concern actually does show promise.

But that last part of my last sentence is the key. The 'financial management' must indeed be based on sound accounting principles, and the concern must be able to show real promise. If it isn't, then why should anyone be expected to finance it?

"Interest" is simply another cost. Like rent, or insurance, or telephone, electricity, taxes, etc. Many of these costs are 'fixed', either in whole or in part, too. They aren't reduced if the business has a 'slow' month. And less, or nothing, coming in to pay them from. As to the 'real' problems with "interest", they're caused by a growing unliquidatable debt in the aggregate, and a consequent continual decline in the purchasing power of your dollar. It's to this we should direct our attention. Solve those problems, and interest, in many cases, would amount to very little more than the actual cost of providing the financial service.

Regards,

Joe

----- Original Message -----

From: Jamie Walton

To: socialcredit@elistas.com

Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 7:54 AM

Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Regarding "interest" and "usury"

Hi all,

1.. Does anyone know whether the money that banks use to pay their expenses roughly equates with the money collected as interest? I suppose there is collated data available from statistics agencies and central banks, has anyone looked at this? [If no-one has done this, I suppose I can add it to my list of things to do]

2. Is calling Calvin a humanist a bit of tongue-in-cheek? I think the arbitrariness of expecting interest regardless of the use outcome of the lent money is unjustifiable, why can't lending be treated like an investment, with an agreed and linked share of the use outcome as the return?

Cheers,

Jamie Walton.
On 17/01/2008, John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Myro, for your first point. I have been trying to get it over also.
However, if you take the Douglas analysis as a scientific model and test it scientifically against fact, it soon becomes obvious that it is by far the best explanantion for perceived economic facts and problems. For example the ledar lack of worldwide prosoerith last century except in times of war, preparation for it or recovery from it.
The answer seems clear. Banks also reinvest and pass repayments to reserves. There is a deficiency in purchasing power unless very active new borrowing continues. There is a tendency towards a "gap", but it is by no means as big as many social Crediters project.
Regards.

John R.

> Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 09:13:04 -0800
> From: new_economics@yahoo.com
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: [socialcredit] Regarding "interest" and "usury"
>
> Unfortunately, Peter, there are some whoppers from
> both Shakespeare and Yaseen in the first half of the
> program that will turn off educated and open minded
> people to the proposed solutions.
>
> For example, Shakespeare's assertion that "one of the
> problems of creating out of nothing is that it creates
> enough money for the principal of the loan but not
> enough for the interest."
>
> And Yaseen's assertion that "the Quran condemns
> categorically usury, or interest."
>
> First, to address Shakespeare's assertion:
>
> We say that banks create money because they credit
> deposit accounts when they create loans. The ability
> and propensity to transfer deposit balances from
> person to person in transactions is what makes deposit
> accounts effectively money in today's economy. So,
> when loans are granted, money is being created. And,
> when loans are repaid, together with interest, money
> is being canceled.
>
> But there is a reciprocal monetary flow from the banks
> when they make payments for ordinary business
> expenses, salaries and wages to their employees,
> dividends to their stockholders, etc., where they also
> credit deposit account balances, which is additional
> to loans in the creation of money. This puts money
> into circulation not deriving from loans that is
> available to pay interest to the banks in payment for
> financial services rendered.
>
> Now, to Yaseen's assertion:
>
> The ancient scriptures originally written in Semitic
> languages used two words that were erroneously
> translated or interpreted as "usury."
>
> A modern Islamic scholar in the United States writes
> this:
>
> http://www.submission.org/islam/interest-usury.html
>
> "The Quran forbids usury, not interest. Quite a few
> states in USA have laws against usury. Usury is
> defined as excessive interest. A Dictionary defines
> usury as 'an excessive or inordinate premium for the
> use of money borrowed', 'extortionate interest', or
> 'the practice of taking exorbitant or excessive
> interest.' The Arabic language also makes distinction
> between interest (Fa'eda) and usury (Reba). The Quran
> forbids Reba or usury."
>
> Which is perfectly consistent with the modern Jewish
> and Christian perspectives on the matter:
>
> http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/jones.usury
>
> "John Calvin's letter on usury of 1545 made it clear
> that when Christ said 'lend hoping for nothing in
> return,' He meant that we should help the poor freely.
> Following the rule of equity, we should judge people
> by their circumstances, not by legal definitions.
> Humanist that he was, Calvin knew there were two
> Hebrew words translated as 'usury.' One, neshek, meant
> 'to bite'; the other, tarbit, meant 'to take
> legitimate increase.' Based on these distinctions,
> Calvin argued that only 'biting' loans were forbidden.
> Thus, one could lend at interest to business people
> who would make a profit using the money. To the
> working poor one could lend without interest, but
> expect the loan to be repaid. To the impoverished one
> should give without expecting repayment."
> -
>
> Myro
>
>
> ---------------original message-----------------
>
> Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:23:12 +0000
> From: "Peter Challen" <peterchallen@googlemail.com>
> To: discussion@globaljusticemovement.net
> Subject: Re: [GJM] An excellent programme
>
> I've reached the half-way stage of the programme
> recommended below and use the 'break' to add my
> recommendation to this sanguine critique of a complex
> situation - a remarkable bit of broadcasting.
>
> Peter
>
> On 10/01/2008, Rodney Shakespeare
> <rodney.shakespeare1@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> Dear All.
>
> Alright, I know I should not say this (because I am
> one of the speakers with Moeen Yaseen of
> Globalvision2000) but Global Money Crisis: Just Where
> Does the Buck Stop? is an excellent programme. Moeen
> is tremendous!!
>
> At last we have managed to put across on television
> some analysis of what is wrong with the global economy
> and also put across some idea of the GJM solution.
>
> To see the programe:- go to www.Presstv.com then
> (left-hand side) Programs then The Agenda then Global
> Money Crisis: -- the programme on Monday, 9th January,
> 2008
>
> Rodney Shakespeare.
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
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