eListas Logo
   The Most Complete Mailing Lists, Groups and Newsletters System on the Net
Home > My Lists > socialcredit > Messages

 Message Index 
 Messages from 5203 to 5262 
Re: More re Say's william_
RE: Re: Replying t John G R
Summarising John G R
Re: Summarising Jamie Wa
Re: Summarising Joe Thom
RE: Summarising John G R
RE: Summarising Henry Ra
Re: Summarising Joe Thom
Re: Regarding "int Jamie Wa
Re: Regarding "int Joe Thom
Re: Regarding "int Martin H
RE: Summarising John G R
RE: Summarising John G R
Re: Summarising Joe Thom
Re: More re Say's william_
Re: Summarising William
Gordon Brown at WE Eric Enc
Re: Gordon Brown a Martin H
Re: Gordon Brown a William
RE: Gordon Brown a John G R
Re: Regarding "int Jamie Wa
Re: Regarding "int Joe Thom
Re: Gordon Brown a William
Back up Gordon Bro Eric Enc
Re: Back up Gordon William
Re: Back up Gordon Eric Enc
What is the actual william_
RE: What is the ac John G R
Re: What is the ac Joe Thom
Re: What is the ac Joe Thom
RE: What is the ac John G R
Re: What is the ac William
RE: What is the ac John G R
Re: What is the ac Joe Thom
Re: What is the ac william_
Re: What is the ac Joe Thom
RE: What is the ac John G R
Re: What is the ac Wallace
Re: What is the ac Joe Thom
RE: What is the ac John G R
The Use of Social william_
Re: The Use of Soc Joe Thom
RE: The Use of Soc John G R
Re: The Use of Soc Joe Thom
RE: The Use of Soc John G R
Re: The Use of Soc william_
The "Gap" John G R
The 'Gap' Martin H
How To Start A Ban Eric Enc
Re: The 'Gap' Per Almg
Re: How To Start A Per Almg
Re: How To Start A Per Almg
MADAGASCAR : a soc Franšois
Responding in an e Terence
 << Prev. 60 | Next 60 >>
Main page    Messages | Post | Files | Database | Polls | Events | My Preferences
Message 5272     < Previous | Next >
Reply to this message
Subject:[socialcredit] MADAGASCAR : a social credit experiment
Date:Wednesday, February 27, 2008  08:24:40 (+0100)
From:Franšois de Siebenthal <siebenthal @.....com>

Dear Encina,

Go ahead, you do'nt need red tape and delays from the central governement.
Use swiss laws as an NGO frrom Switzerland and do as in Madagascar or in Guernesey.

Good luck.

The Madagascar Experiment , a true social credit experiment, using dividends and compensated discounts in a small community seen as an island.

Dear Friend,

Please, see video with swiss wir bank and other videos how to create your own money sytem and improve it with social credit. http://youtube.com/watch?v=uQehEGGwy0Q Who is interested to join wir-international ( Wir means in german we together, us the living, as the Robert Heinlein science fiction book describing such a system, book to be destroyed on orders of the "masters"). The future society has a  Social Credit structure Ś something which may come as a surprise to those who were not acquainted with Heinlein's early leftist leanings.


At a number of points in For Us, the Living , Heinlein describes an environment in which individuals are able to choose whether or not to accept a job. Passing references are made to the large number of individuals who take up art or other careers that traditionally do not pay well. The book also points out the short working hours and high wages paid to employees. The book ascribes this flexible working environment to the  social credit system (the "Dividend") adopted by the USA.


http://www.heinleinsociety.org/news/newsFUTL.html i.e. people who have the technology to give more free time for the best ? Most of the work can be done by robots, computers and so on... You need to organize as Singapoor did, taking some ideas from the swiss. You can copy our legal articles of ass.

Switzerland was the poorest country in the world.

Financial Crisis is when the public loses confidence in financial institutions such as banks, and therefore want actual legal money from them, rather than their promises to pay, which are normally accepted as money. This takes us back to the many sorts of money that we can use in our economy. One is legal tender money, coins and notes issued by or on behalf of the state, which creditors are legally obliged to accept in settlement of what is owed to them. 

The second is bank created credit (at least 95% of the total money supply), which is no more than a bank's promise to deliver legal tender money on demand, given in exchange for a borrower's promise to repay, usually over a period of time.

The others are all other means used as money ( coupons, tires, reka, mana, etc...) 1) Money #1 cannot be destroyed, and therefore circulates from producers to consumers and back again. M1 is public in Switzerland but private in many countries, the US FED is owned by private people and work for their pockets... 2) Money #2, 3, 4, n are continually being created and destroyed by private banks for profits, as loans are made and repaid. This leads therefore to "trade cycles", where inflation alternates with recession, as bank money is created and withdrawn. A particular effect of financing business capital through bank loans (a very common practice) is to create credit money at a time when capital goods (factories, machinery, etc. etc) are being produced, workers are receiving incomes, but nothing more is going on the market for people to buy. When the factory is completed, and workers are laid off, goods start reaching the market, businessmen start wanting to repay their bank loans, but the laid off workers now have no money either to buy the products, and the businessman therefore finds it impossible to repay his bank financing. (This explains the Douglas A+B theorem, where A is wages, and B is capital costs). Therefore we have recessions. 3) Money "swiss wir" is our wir system, a social system free and efficient.

4) Social credit creation, S3C, a better system based on C.H. Douglas principles and applied locally in Madagascar .


.php?lng=en&pg=711 http://www.complementarycurrency.org/ccvideo.html The Wirtschaftsring in Switzerland, WIR. WIR Economic Circle Cooperative www.wir.ch in german, french and italian, Please, see wir bank on google The Wirtschaftsring in Switzerland, formed in 1934 is one of the oldest complementary currency systems in existence. See our websites and our work at www.complementarycurrency.org and www.network-economies.com a very simple system to begin with... http://www.pavie.ch/articles.php?lng=en&pg=263 If you want computers... We are happy to announce that a new version of Cyclos has been published on Source forge http://sourceforge.net/projects /cyclos . Cyclos is published under the GPL license which means it can be used at no costs and it will run on a variety of platforms like Linux, Windows, Macintosh and Solaris. But, even more important, anybody is free to download the source code and add new functions, make improvements or modifications.

Report summarized of a small  community of creditists.
To begin,  the   social  crediters came from Canada and Switzerland and provided 100 $ CDN of hens in 2004, plus  the  countable notebooks,  the  large countable book,  the  pencils and two envoys on the  spot during a day, with  the  formation of one responsible local person during a few hours and three visits of a local specialist trained in Canada. 4 zebus (1000 $ ) were given in 2006.  The saffron bulbs were lost in  the  post office.  The  community is composed of 66 people in quasi autarkical situation, without electricity nor telephone and 100 % ecologist.
There is 0 pollution.
Thanks to  the  system, no more usury at around 1'000 percent interest. They more than doubled  the production of rice and vegetables. Despite several hurricanes, they could build or rebuild all buildings themselves, including  the  Church,  the  presbytery and improve all their houses of terra cotta bricks. They built in more of  the  cattle sheds and  the  shelters for 7 zebus (from 4 to 7), for 1454 hens, a school and began to build a multifunction center. 148 chickens were eaten and 346 sold. They also made a system of irrigation, with 5 permanent dams and several provisional dams to improve.  The  roads all are remade thanks to  the  communal efforts.  The  total value of  the appreciations is higher than 5 million local currency.  The  requirements of official money are met by the  sale for eggs and hens.
People: They engaged three teachers, a fourth arrives. A person became  the  doctor of  the  area. The  committee meets at least once per week.  The  families pray three times per day, Lauds, complies and vespers. They make recollections and retirements.
The  accounts are audited by two elected persons, then by Dina. More than 4 flowers (vocations of priests). Their motto is to prayers, work and eat.
Projects: Community bank of local seeds. A system to alert thanks to a goose herd to drive out  the robbers. To test  the  saffran Medicinal plants. To continue  the  afforestation (eucalyptus). Impression of tickets of local currency to open  the  exchanges with  the  neighbours expressed as a percentage freely negotiated governmental currency, as  the  Mana system as   www.wir.ch    To organize visits, come and see. We thank all those which who made it possible.
Signed: Rev. Father Alain Thiery Raharison, Cathedral of  Antananarivo
more in English and French on  www.pavie.ch/mobile
http://pavie.ch/img/noel-2007 .jpg

Quote of Michael Lane....

February 2005 

Since April 2002 I have been urging on the world social credit community -- in a letter to my fellow directors of the Social Credit Secretariat, in issue after issue of  Triumph of the Past , in Bill Ryan's social credit e-mail discussion group, in the concluding chapter of my book on Charles Ferguson, in five talks in Australia and New Zealand in October 2002, and on the Australian League of Rights website -- that we no longer wait but implement social credit immediately at the local level, adapting Douglas's ideas for that purpose. 
Last May two representatives of the Pilgrims of St. Michael - full-time pilgrim Marcel Lefebvre and "our good friend of Switzerland, Mr. Francois de Siebenthal consul general of the Philippines and an economist" - visited Madagascar as guests of the Catholic Episcopal Commission on Justice and Peace. The following is the account of this visit published in the Pilgrims' 
Michael  journal for May-July 2004:

Then we went into the bush, driven by the secretary, in the pastor's "4 x 4" vehicle. We were invited by the Secretary General of the Justice and Peace Commission, Mr. Jean Marie, a father of 8 children, who is involved with church activities. He managed to gather all the people of the village to meet us. 
We began with the recitation of the Rosary, and then gave a talk on the cause of their poverty, and the way out, by establishing a local money system, like in Switzerland and in Argentine, where they call it "social credits." We told them about the possibility of creating their own figures (money) to develop their area, without waiting for the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank, and all the other money-lenders who exploit them. We founded together the first Social Credit bank, just as the five islanders did in "
The Money Myth Exploded ." They brought all their belongings to create a fund to start the new bank. It was really moving and impressive to see them bring all they had. They are really good people. Bishop Raymond told us that within a year, there will be 500 small banks like this one in Madagascar. 
So where we founded this first bank, we gave a Rosary to every family that enlisted, and made them promise to say the family Rosary every day for the success of this important undertaking. Before founding the bank, Mr. de Siebenthal asked the priest who was accompanying us to confess the Faithful. There will be no interest charged in this bank; on the contrary, dividends will soon be given to every participant. They will develop their own area in an impressive manner.

De Siebenthal gave a presentation about this at the Pilgrims' Annual Congress in September at their center in Rougemont, Quebec. From October-December issue of  Michael :

Mr. Francois de Siebenthal spoke to us of his apostolate with Mr. Marcel Lefebvre in Madagascar last May. In a small county in the bush, far from large cities, our two fervent Social Crediters established Social Credit in a simple manner, a bit like the story in " The Money Myth ." "Madagascar," Mr. de Siebenthal told us, "is the concrete example of a talk given by Mr. Louis Even. I re-read all the early writings by Louis Even in a small pamphlet. He spoke of Switzerland, of methods, of referendums, and of local banks in Switzerland. We simply applied this project from the 1930's of Louis Even, applied it in Madagascar.

Guest speaker Bill Daly of New Zealand summarized de Siebenthal's presentation as follows:

An experienced banker, now working for a Catholic TV station, he had only a short while before heard of Social Credit. But being a man of action he had earlier in 2004 spent several weeks at Rougemont learning as much as possible and had then gone to Madagascar with a colleague and started a small local credit scheme in one of the remotest and poorest districts. While initially very simple it is intended to introduce other aspects as the scheme develops, such as a national dividend and the compensated price. The Cardinal of Madagascar wants to see such schemes established in every one of his more than 100 parishes.

This exciting idea became a main focal point of the Congress. Again from Bill Daly:

What was evident at Rougemont was the new possibility of such developments emerging within, but not exclusively, the third world. More than one Bishop was present from Mexico and the Philippines and there were a number of priests and lay professional people, some associated with universities. . . . Certainly those attending from Poland, Mexico, Ecuador, Benin and the Philippines only demonstrated great enthusiasm and hope for genuine reform in their own diocese, parishes, towns and countries.

Another speaker, Vic Bridger of Australia, put it this way:

It was stimulating because of the enthusiasm shown by all the delegates from Poland, Mexico, Ecuador, and the Philippines in particular. . . . Each of the Bishops and Monseigneurs [Monsignors] declared that they would be furthering the cause through their pulpits. . . . I left the Congress with the view that it may well be the poorer countries who will give the lead because they have nothing to lose but their poverty.

According to the same issue of  Michael , "Fr. Jozef Jakubiec and Doctor Jan Wilk want to found, at the Shrine of the Holy Family in Krakow . . . a bank that lends interest-free money, working along the Social Credit principles." Finally, a recent Pilgrims flyer released in advance of a series of public meetings in New Zealand says: "With the help of local church and community leaders they initiated an exciting complementary currency in an impoverished area of Madagascar. Presently similar projects are planned in Poland, the Philippines and elsewhere." 

Actually, the first interest of the Pilgrims in this concept can be dated a little earlier, namely, a conference at Zakopane, Poland in December 2003, hosted by that same Fr. Ja
kubiec. In an e-mail to the Social Credit Action Group, Diane Boucher, who represents the Pilgrims and has a master's degree in economics, states:

The subject of the conference in Zakopane was about practical ways to implement social credit policies. People interested in social credit in Poland do not want to use a top-down strategy but a bottom-up one. That is to say they choose not to implement social credit at the national level, but to create small communities using local monies. . . . People in the Louis Even Institute [Pilgrims] think that the way Poland chose is a good way to begin an implementation of a social credit system.

It is now going on a year since the foundation of the "first Social Credit bank." But not only have we had no progress report, we don't even know what was done in the first place. The sketchy account above is all that has been published. Diane Boucher has supplied a  little  more information in two e-mails to the Social Credit Action Group:

September 3, 2004: What the villagers did with their belongings was to put a monetary value on them. So the accountant of the Bank was able to write these values to the account of each member of the Social Credit Bank. The credit (positive side) transaction and debit (negative side) transaction . . . are simply written in a small accounting booklet for each member and in the great book of the accountant during each sale. When somebody needs credits to make products, the accountant writes the new credits in the producer's account. So the new credits are created with the new production. Without any interest. The credits are cancelled when the products are sold, that is to say they are cancelled with the consumption of the products. Periodically, new credits are written to the accounts of every member of the Social Credit Bank in the measure where there is social progress. It is the (local) dividend. It is the same way of functioning as in the story of the five islanders. The discount is not implemented yet, because this economy is very simple. When it will become enough complex to have producers of intermediate goods or equipment goods, it will be necessary to implement the discount to consumers with compensation to the producers.

October 5, 2004: Their belongings are their private properties: cows, hens, tools, etc. they can use as producers, plus the communal property: the school being built, for example. They brought these properties together to give a value to the local assets. These assets will grow with social progress and their monetary value will increase. The local dividend will be calculated on the value of the local assets. For example, the school will have a greater value when finished and the dividend will be greater because of this increased value. If a typhoon destroys the school, the monetary value of the local assets will decrease and the next dividend will be lower. 
I think that the villagers' belongings are not a collateral: the new credits are created to equal the value of the new products being made by the local producers, not to equate the value of the local assets. For example, the eggs from the hens are new products and have a market value based on the producer's cost: if a child takes care of the hens and the hens feed themselves around, the value of the child labour is the cost of the eggs. The eggs will be used as food and also in an old roman recipe to make cement for building the school. The villagers were unable to finish the building because they are too poor to buy cement. 
It is really a social credit experiment on a small scale. The credit of this small community has a value as a productive capacity!

To this small cache of evidence we can add the passage alluded to from " The Money Myth Exploded ," by Louis Even, founder of the Pilgrims of St. Michael. The pamphlet is an illustration of economics on a desert isle, such as economists have been making for centuries. There are five castaways: a carpenter, a farmer, an animal breeder, an arborist, and a metallurgist. The relevant passage is in the words of Tom, the metallurgist:

I open an account in the name of each of you. In the right hand column are the credits which increase your account; to the left are the debits which subtract from your account. Each wants $200 to begin with. Very well. We write $200 to the credit of each. Each immediately has $200. Frank buys some goods from Paul for $10. I deduct $10 from Frank leaving him $190. I add $10 to Paul and he now has $210. Jim buys from Paul to the amount of $8. I deduct from Jim $8 leaving him $192. Paul now has $218. Paul buys wood from Frank for $15. I deduct $15 from Paul leaving $203. I add $15 to Frank's account and it goes back to $205. And so we continue; from one account to another in the same fashion as paper banknotes from one man's pocket to another's. If someone needs money to expand production, we issue him the necessary amount of new credit. Once he has sold his products he repays the sum to the credit fund. The same with public works; paid for by new credits. Likewise, each one's account is periodically increased but without taking credits from anyone, in order that all may benefit from the progress society makes. That's the national dividend. In this fashion money becomes an instrument of service.

We have to make the best here of very scanty information. I submitted it to Tom Greco, an expert in alternate currency systems, and he concurred: "The details in that account are insufficient to make a proper assessment." We don't know the name of the village. We know nothing about its size, ethnicity, language, history, manners and customs, social structure, or civic life. It appears to be a Catholic village. We know nothing about its diet, clothing, shelter, sanitation, health care, natural resources, distance from a road, distance from a town. We don't know what it produces besides milk and eggs. We don't know where it gets its tools. 1  We don't know what products it most needs from outside itself. We don't know if is in debt. 
I think we can assume that money is so scarce there that it is virtually a moneyless economy. The school building project was halted because the village was too poor to buy cement. The people probably made their own bricks by pouring mud into wooden forms and baking them in the sun, but the mortar to hold them together would have to come from outside.
2  They have plenty of eggs, so if they can make a cement from eggs, they can be more self-sufficient.
Each member
3  was provided with a "small accounting booklet," and the "accountant of the Bank" keeps a "great book." The villagers physically brought their "cows, hens, tools, etc they can use as producers" to one place, the accountant put a value on them in the new unit (we aren't told what it was called), and that became their initial account balance both in their own booklets and in the great book. This was not a loan but the representation, in figures, of what they already owned. The village thus took a step forward from a moneyless economy to a money economy. The villagers now had a simple way to trade around their cows, hens, and tools according as each had need and opportunity to make use of them. The assessment provided a basis for prices: people knew what a hen was assessed for and would not expect to pay more unless there were a reason. 
In addition, anyone with a good plan could have his account written up in advance on the strength of the goods he was likely to produce. This would be a loan, signifying the village's faith in him as a producer. To use Boucher's example, you could get an advance from the Social Credit Bank to pay your next-door neighbor's child to take care of your laying hens. You could then sell those eggs to someone or to the community to make cement for the school and repay your advance, all by means of these ledgers. 
"The same with public works; paid for by new credits," says Tom. In other words, the village council will also have its own account, which will be credited with the budgeted amount for the school. This would be expended on eggs to make the cement and perhaps also on labor if the labor is not a share-and-share-alike undertaking. This money would be recouped, I would guess, from parents' paying new credits to send their kids there. Is it anticipated that the school will serve neighboring villages as well and, if so, how will they pay? 
So far, this describes a change from a moneyless economy to a money economy but without any specifically social credit features. Boucher states, "These assets will grow with social progress and their monetary value will increase. The local dividend will be calculated on the value of the local assets." She also implies that the initial booklet entries included a share to each of the value of the partially completed school building and that the completed building would generate a monetary dividend in every member's account booklet. 
I fear this is not sound. There is no justification for writing up people's money accounts merely on the basis of increased local assets. In fact, there is no justification for writing up people's accounts initially on the strength of their "private property: cows, hens, tools, etc. they can use as producers, plus the communal property." Their accounts should only be written up for new goods and services that they can buy.
4  And why are milk and eggs - more likely to be sold than hens and cows - left out of the account? 
There seems to be confusion as to whether the new credits issued to the egg producer and the school represent the eggs and education it is hoped they will produce or (as it should) an allocation of the things they or their paid workers will buy with them immediately. It cannot be both at the same time. And what will be the consequence of issuing new money on the strength of goods yet to be produced without regard to what exists to buy with it? 
Dividends will be payable as the village economy succeeds in producing the same sufficiency with less and less loan money. Less money/time required for production means more money/time freed for consumption. 
Both Bishop Raymond and the cardinal of Madagascar hope to found other banks along the same lines. Will they all use the same unit, or will each use its own? The Pilgrims hope to found other banks along the same lines in other countries. What problems have arisen in the operation of the village bank, how were they addressed, and with what success? Has this experience enabled the Pilgrims to make any improvements to their model? 
I call on the Pilgrims of St. Michael to issue a thorough report on the "first Social Credit bank" so that other communities can benefit from the experience of this Madagascar village and create similar institutions for themselves to help raise themselves out of poverty!


1. When I was in the Peace Corps in Sierra Leone, the village blacksmith made tools out of scrap metal from Datsuns. 
2. In Sierra Leone, the people in my village made bricks in exactly this way for a school, but the U.S. government donated the cement and also zinc pan for the roof. 
3. Who is a member? Every person? Every adult? Every household? 
4. Greco comments, "When credits are created [for the people] to pay for capital projects, like building a school, those credits should not be available for spending until the capital project begins to produce goods or services, then those credits should be paid for the goods or services." 


Michael Lane

h ttp://www.alor.org/Triumph%20of%20The%20Past/The%20Madagascar%20Experiment.htm


Avec mes meilleures salutations.
Franšois de Siebenthal
ch. des Roches 14
CH 1010 Lausanne

skype  siebenthal
00 41 21 652 54 83
021 652 55 03
FAX: 652 54 11
CCP 10-35366-2

Présent :
La femme est, comme toujours, l'avenir de l'homme...:-)

http://www.m-c-s.ch/   et

Services:  HomeList Hosting ServicesIndustry Solutions
Your Account:  Sign UpMy ListsMy PreferencesStart a List
General:  About UsNewsPrivacy PolicyNo spamContact Us

eListas Seal
eListas is a registered trademark of eListas Networks S.L.
Copyright © 1999-2006 AR Networks, All Rights Reserved
Terms of Service