eListas Logo
   The Most Complete Mailing Lists, Groups and Newsletters System on the Net
      HOME    SERVICES    SOLUTIONS    COMPANY    
Home > My Lists > socialcredit > Messages

 Message Index 
 Messages from 5263 to 5322 
SubjectFrom
Reconstruction william_
Re: Responding in Martin H
Unlike Consumers, william_
Re: Unlike Consume Martin H
Re: Unlike Consume William
Question regarding william_
Re: Question regar Martin H
Re: Question regar Joe Thom
Re: Public-spirite Peter Ho
We are looking for Franšois
Re: Public-spirite Peter Ho
Re: Question regar william_
Re: Re: Public-spi keith wi
Re: Re: Public-spi Peter Ho
RE: Re: Question r John G R
Re: Re: Public-spi Wallace
Re: Re: Public-spi Jim Inne
Re: We are looking Martin H
Re: Re: Public-spi keith wi
Re: We are looking Bob Taft
Re: Re: Question r Joe Thom
Re: DICK EASTMAN: Peter Ho
Re: Re: Public-spi Peter Ho
Re: Question regar william_
Re: I await your a Peter Ho
Re: Re: I await yo Peter Ho
Re: Re: Re: I awai William
Z elistas <socialc John G R
Re: Re: I await yo Peter Ho
in further reply t william_
Re: in further rep Vicky Da
Re: Re: Re: I awai Martin H
Re: in further rep Joe Thom
Re: in further rep Joe Thom
Re: in further rep Vicky Da
Re: in further rep Adavans
Re: in further rep Adavans
Re: in further rep Bob Taft
Re: in further rep Joe Thom
Re: in further rep Vicky Da
Re: Shakespeare's Peter Ho
Re: Shakespeare's Peter Ho
Re: Food For Thoug William
Shortage of staple Eric Enc
Re: Re: Re: I awai Joe Thom
RE: Shortage of st Henry Ra
Re: Re: Re: I awai William
Re: Re: Re: I awai William
Re: Shakespeare's Peter Ho
Re: Re: Re: I awai Joe Thom
Re: Re: Re: I awai Martin H
Re: Re: Re: I awai Per Almg
Re: Re: Re: I awai William
Re: Re: Re: I awai William
Re: Re: Re: I awai Martin H
Re: Re: Re: I awai Joe Thom
Re: Re: Re: I awai Per Almg
Re: Re: Re: I awai Joe Thom
Re: Re: Re: I awai William
Re: Re: Re: I awai Wallace
 << Prev. 60 | Next 60 >>
 
socialcredit
Main page    Messages | Post | Files | Database | Polls | Events | My Preferences
Message 5294     < Previous | Next >
Reply to this message
Subject:Re: [socialcredit] Re: Question regarding A + B
Date:Wednesday, March 19, 2008  22:29:22 (-0800)
From:Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
In reply to:Message 5285 (written by william_b_ryan)

Bill, thanks for this explanation.  This is truly fascinating.  It is a
difficult conception for me to immediately grasp, and I'm sure others would
find it so, too, since it requires looking at things in a way far
differently from the way we usually do.  But put as you've put it here, it
does seem to make sense.

When you wrote one time before, I believe it was in a discussion with
Michael Lane a few years ago, that consumers buy goods and services,  and
'securities', then with the Social Credit augmentations to income we could
expect to see a broadening of capital ownership, (and more investment in
'new' product development and discoveries), as the "propensity to consume",
(existing) product diminished and more of  our individual incomes could be
directed into investment?

If that's the case, then that would certainly be something different  and
more meaningful from what the Kelso ESOP schemes, ("scams", because I think
you're right in what you've written previously about a lot of them being
just that), have to offer.

Joe

----- Original Message -----
From: <william_b_ryan@yahoo.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 12:15 PM
Subject: [socialcredit] Re: Question regarding A + B


> Joe, the question that I put is one of the arguments
> against A + B.  I do have an answer (based on
> increasing account balances held by firms as opposed
> to final consumers that are expensed against sales
> through time) but I wanted to read other perspectives,
> which you and Martin have graciously supplied.  As to
> being an argument against A + B, you know that the
> Kelsonians (or "Binarians") propose the "full payout"
> of profits in dividends, and the broadening or
> spreading of capital ownership, which is a kind of
> "propensity to consume" argument.  They start from the
> premise that something like eighty percent of
> production is from capital not labor.  But because
> capital is so narrowly owned, the argument goes, the
> owners of capital could not possibly spend the
> totality of prospective dividend income on consumption
> if it were fully paid out in dividends.  In other
> words, the owners of narrowly distributed capital have
> a very low "propensity to consume" from dividend
> income, so the solution to the "gap" between "prices"
> and "purchasing power" is to broadly disperse capital
> ownership through financial gimmicks like the ESOP,
> thereby broadly distributing dividend income to those
> with a higher "propensity to consume."  The Kelsonian
> proposal is riddled with fallacies, as I have
> demonstrated in several years of discussion on the now
> defunct Ownership list.
> -
>
> "Maybe I'm way off base in trying to follow what
> you're saying here, Bill, but it seems to me that
> there still would be a 'gap'. Doesn't the product
> actually have to sell before there is any profit
> booked that could subsequently be distributed as
> dividends?"
> ------------------------------------------
>
> It depends very much on whether you're looking at the
> situation from a "micro" or "macro" perspective.  By
> the rules of double-entry accounting you can only pay
> dividends from accumulated profit rather than paid in
> capital, so this implies a "before" or "after"
> situation.  But if you'll look at the diagram for the
> creditary economy as a whole in quasi steady-state at
> http://geocities.com/socredus/compendium/steady-state.gif
> you'll see that the A curve, representing salaries,
> wages and dividends leads the sales curve, so the
> dividends curve presumably will be leading the sales
> curve in reflux to dividends.  This must surely be the
> case if dividends have completely replaced salaries
> and wages in a hypothetical fully automated economy
> that is growing.  This is because the behavior of a
> continuous dynamic process differs from the behavior
> of a discreet process that is an element of the
> continuous dynamic process.  For example, individuals
> are born and die in their individual life cycles, but
> the society as a whole is continuous, in that the
> phenomena of being born and dying are occurring
> simultaneously in the society as a whole.  If the
> population is increasing, the rate of births is
> exceeding the rate of deaths at any point in time.
> From the micro-economic sense, profit is a
> relationship that is changing through time, and not a
> quantifiably measurable thing.  In the mathematical
> sense of double-entry accounting, profit is a
> measurement of the rate of change in sales in
> comparison to the rate of change of investment.  It is
> an algorithm that estimates that changing ratio.  Look
> again at the diagram.  The A + B curve appears to
> "lead" the sales curve, but in reality the A + B curve
> is very much a dependent variable of the sales curve,
> because sales very much determine continued investment
> by entrepreneurs.  Social Credit proposes to augment
> investment through the augmentation of sales through
> accounting adjustment (the dividend and retail
> discount), thereby preserving the sovereignty of the
> final consumer.
>
>
> ---------------original message-----------------
>
> (Bill Ryan wrote:-)  I've described the "gap" between
> "prices" and "purchasing power" as resulting from a
> falling ratio of A to B in the ratio, A/A + B.  But A
> includes dividends as well as wages and salaries.  As
> wages are decreased with advancing technology and
> organization, could not prices be decreased and
> dividends increased from increasing profits such that
> the ratio remains constant, and hence no "gap"?
>
> (Joe asks:-)  Maybe I'm way off base in trying to
> follow what you're saying here, Bill, but it seems to
> me that there still would be a "gap". Doesn't the
> product actually have to sell before there is any
> profit booked that could subsequently be distributed
> as dividends?
>
> If wages are decreased where is the effective demand
> for the product going to come from?  Would a consumer
> be able to borrow based solely on the expectation he
> could repay his spending through his share of future
> dividends?  Assuming, of course, that he holds any
> shares in the first place in Companies that do pay
> dividends.
>
> Even if prices are reduced too, aren't current wages
> only a 'part' of prices, and wouldn't there still be
> 'past' costs that have to be recovered in them?  Would
> the increase in volume be enough to cover those by
> itself? Or wouldn't  there still need to be an
> augmentation to "A" not costed into prices in the
> nature of a ND or CPD?
>
> Like I say, maybe I've got this all wrong..  If so,
> perhaps you could take us through the whole accounting
> process in a little more detail.
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit

Services:  HomeList Hosting ServicesIndustry Solutions
Your Account:  Sign UpMy ListsMy PreferencesStart a List
General:  About UsNewsPrivacy PolicyNo spamContact Us

eListas Seal
eListas is a registered trademark of eListas Networks S.L.
Copyright © 1999-2006 AR Networks, All Rights Reserved
Terms of Service