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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] Re: [chdouglas] Re: I await youranswerstomyquestions (was: Re: Public-spirited Banking
Date:Monday, March 31, 2008  02:29:11 (-0600)
From:Wallace Klinck <wmklinck @....ca>
In reply to:Message 5331 (written by Joe Thomson)

Hi Joe,

I agree essentially with your observations as expressed below.  LETS schemes are exactly that, i.e., EXCHANGE systems--designed in the context of primitive economies wherein it is assumed that money incomes earned will be sufficient to claim the proceeds of economic activity.  SOCIAL CREDIT is concerned with DISTRIBUTION in the context of the modern capital intensifying economy--wherein money would increasingly become a mechanism of DISTRIBUTION.  This is because modern economies wherein labor is progressively displaced by technology are characterized by an increasing inability of the consumer to purchase, with financial incomes earned within each cycle of production, the goods which emanate from that cycle of production.  Acquisition of these goods is only facilitated through resort to increasing financial debt which is transferred as a claim against future cycles of production having no relationship with the physical production cycle in which the original financial prices were incurred.  This, of course, is not--as it should be--a liquidation or cancellation of financial cost and price.  You are quite right:  LETS systems are not suited to the modern economy which utilizes tools more than human labor, and they do not incorporate the cost-accountancy measures which are required to correct the inherent or intrinsic flaw in the modern price-system.  As such, they are irrelevant and a red-herring which detracts attention from the essential task which is to substitute an appropriate system of national financial cost accountancy for the existing defective one wherein consumers are properly charged with capital depreciation but wrongly not credited with capital appreciation--which latter is much greater than depreciation.  Your observation that LETS system are directed toward creation of "work" are most apropos.  Social Credit envisions an age of increasing leisure. 

Sincerely
Wally


On 30-Mar-08, at 12:36 PM, Joe Thomson wrote:
Hello Per,
 
Thanks for your response and comments.  I believe one of the main problems with LETS schemes, aside from gaining a universal enough 'acceptance' for the 'local' currency, lies in the area of accounting itself. 
 
 In many of them, it seems to me, it doesn't represent 'facts' properly.  That's not to say that 'regular' money accounting is perfect in that respect either, especially in the larger sense.   But at least there is a closer reflection of some of the realities in it  that LETS scheme advocates seem to (want to?) overlook.
 
If it were necessary, as it clearly was in the Canadian Province of Alberta in the 1930's, to get something which functioned as 'money' to overcome a situation where regular money (credit) from the Banks was no longer available,  Douglas described how such a 'local' (Provincial) currency scheme might be implemented. 
 
Which could have quite easily co-existed with regular Canadian money, and would have done much to ease the problems then facing that Province's citizens.  But what Douglas proposed back then WAS based on sound accounting principles coupled with  a realistic conception of what needed to be done at that time.  Unfortunately, his advice was either not well understood, or purposefully ignored by those in a position to follow it, or who hoped to accomplish some other purpose.
 
LETS schemes, in contrast to Douglas's ideas, seem to me to be designed with the idea that the creation of "work", whether it be in any ways useful to anyone or not, is the ultimate goal desired.  "That no man should eat, (even if there's more than enough to feed him), unless he first works."  In this, in my opinion, they merely perpetuate, and complicate, notions that are long outdated in any modern, productive society.
 
Regards,
Joe
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: [chdouglas] Re: I await youranswerstomyquestions (was: Re: Public-spirited Banking

Joe Thomson skrev:
Hello Martin, 
 
That sounds very much like the "LETS" scheme that was promoted quite 
actively in our area, (Comox Valley region of BC's Vancouver Island), a 
number of years ago.  One of the bright lights behind it then was a fellow 
by the name of Michael Linton, who subsequently ran for Mayor of  Courtenay, 
was defeated, and moved on.  While it was in vogue,  the idea achieved 
enough publicity for the Seattle, Washington PBS TV station to send a film 
crew up here and do a documentary on it. 
 
Despite all the favourable publicity, it very quickly petered out, though. 
Eventually the only participants left in it were largely those who really 
had little or nothing anyone else would normally be interested in 
purchasing, including their labour.    Either with ''Green dollars", or 
Canadian currency. 
 
A few service providers, as I recall, one local optometrist was one of the 
strongest backers, might have been able to benefit somewhat 'under the 
table', but the vast majority of 'mainstream' businesses took a look and 
said, "No thanks." 
 
These type of schemes might stand more of a chance of success in some area 
where poverty is more universalized, and there is way less dependence on out 
of area providers of things like electricity, and fuel, telephone, etc., 
which couldn't be paid for in the alternate currency.  In our own case, in 
the business we're in, it would've been completely unworkable the way it was 
here.  And I think that was the case with most other firms who examined its 
prospects, too. 
 
I believe, myself, that one of the greatest obstacles to SC progress is that 
there has never been a clear conception of exactly just what it is we're 
really trying to do.  One  that everyone can agree on.   Once, (if ever!), 
that's achieved we might be able to effectively utilize the "increment of 
association" to far better advantage. 
 
Regards, 
Joe 
  
There is ways to create "extra" money outside the banking system but it needs cooperation 
among part of the businesses in the area. You can use the ordinary money as a base for it. Then
it would be easier to handle "export" and "import". Another but similar way is to copy the 
"Chiemgauer-money" in Germany, it is now expanding quite fast, there are people in 32 cities that plans to
copy it. Yearly turnover is about 2 million Euro but it is quickly rising. The idea is basically the same as
Gesell presented for more than 100 years ago, and turned out to be very succesful in the small town
of W÷rgl in Austria in the beginning of the thirties, before the Central bank managed to stop it. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer
Per Almgren
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca> 
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 11:26 AM 
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: [chdouglas] Re: I await your 
answerstomyquestions (was: Re: Public-spirited Banking (was: Re: 
TheAbolitionofInterest on Loans)) 
 
 
  
Hi, Joe 
 
I sympathize with your wish to find a way to "break through". 
 
I wonder whether one way is to forget about political action altogether, 
    
at 
  
least for a time, and create some viable alternative currency scheme. I 
    
see 
  
there's a group promoting "Calgary Dollars" (www.calgarydollars.ca) which 
might be worth a look. Once people understand that money doesn't have to 
come from bank loans, we could be on our way. 
 
Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St., 
EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1 
Phone & Fax: (780) 483-5442 
e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca> 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca> 
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 10:38 AM 
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: [chdouglas] Re: I await your answers 
tomyquestions (was: Re: Public-spirited Banking (was: Re: The 
AbolitionofInterest on Loans)) 
 
    


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