| Subject: | [socialcredit] Re: [SPAM] Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury. | | Date: | Friday, June 27, 2008 07:48:45 (+0200) | | From: | Per Almgren <almgren_per @.....com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5412 (written by Martin Hattersley) |
Martin Hattersley skrev:
> I would say, Per, that there's a bit more to inflation than just the
> interest question.
>
That I tried to point out by writing
"*the other is payment to those who owns money,
either in the form of interest or in the form of profit"
*in the first paragraph of my writing..
> It is the creation of capital by way of bank loans of new credit, for
> example, that has made our current housing boom, financed by mortgages of up
> to 40 years, a possibility. This drives up the price of real estate, which
> buyers will accept so long as they believe the market will keep rising and
> give them a capital gain on resale.
Yes, that is why I wrote "in the form of profit".
> At some point, however, the bubble
> bursts and a lot of people get hurt when their equity sinks to a level below
> their debt obligations, as seems to be happening in the U.S. at the present
> time.
>
> The use of bank financing for control of industries through "leveraged
> buyouts", or bank financed commodity speculation "on margin" all have the
> same effect - look at today's price of gasoline!
>
In Sweden we now pay more than 14 SEK per litre for Gasoline, it is
approximately 8.80 USD per gallon (US).
It has not caused any riots. A governmental analysis found that the
price level must at least double before people
would change their driving habits enough to actually have a real impact
on the carbon dioxide outlet.
> Not the first time there has been a "bubble" of boom and bust in history,
> and likely not the last!
>
True
Per Almgren
> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> Phone (780) 483-5442
> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Per Almgren" <almgren_per@telia.com>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
>
>
> Joe Thomson skrev:
>
>> (Martin wrote:-) Something that concerns me about Douglas is the fact that
>> he appears to wish
>> to superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a banking system not
>> fundamentally changed from the present. As I see it, the toleration of
>> interest (reward without risk), is in fact a means by which those who
>> issue
>> credit become more and more wealthy at the expenses of the public, the
>> value
>> of whose money is steadily eroded by inflation.
>>
>> (Joe comments:-) I think what you're saying about Douglas above may well
>> be
>> true, Martin.
>>
>> But is there really "reward without risk" for those who "issue credit" if
>> the value of the public's money is steadily eroded by inflation?
>>
>> For is not the "public's money" the same money by which you say the
>> issuers
>> of credit will become "more and more wealthy"?
>>
>> And if it is, and it's being steadily eroded by inflation over time in
>> terms of what it'll buy, there's certainly a "risk" present there, too, I
>> would think.
>>
>>
> The interest paid is actually causing the inflation since there is only
> two types of costs includid in the price of goods and services.
> One is the payment for labor, *the other is payment to those who owns
> money, either in the form of interest or in the form of profit*.
>
> If not all of the received income is used directly for purchasing goods
> or services, or given to other people who uses it directly for
> purchasing goods or seriveces or given ... and so on, then the rest of
> the money is either witheld (hoarded) or lended or "invested" in some
> kind of "papers" that give a return, i.e. shares or bonds.
>
> Since the group who paid the costs for interest and profit doesn't get
> the total sum back in form of wages and salaries they will have less
> money than before unless they in one way or another borrows more money
> from somebody outside this group. As times pass by they will get more
> and more indebted and/or experience a rising rate of unemployment. (In
> this description a person could belong to both groups if he or she
> both get interst and a salry or wage.)
>
> The same problem occurs if people starts to save part of their wages and
> salaries. What is then actually happening is that their personal
> situation gradually move their "point of gravity" from the working group
> to the owning group. For most of them, it won't improve their economical
> situation. The cause of this is that the cost part of interest of goods
> and services will rise as fast as this move goes on.
>
> In order to be a winner in this type of interest and profit system, your
> part of the total invested and lended sum must be grater than yor part
> of the total income from wages and salaries. Many years ago, I checked
> this from a representative sample (about 13 000 housholds) of the
> Swedish population from official statistics. The result was that only
> two percent of the total population actually was to be found among the
> winners. That means that a lot of people supports the present system
> although they actually are among the losers, but they themselves
> apparently think that they belong to the winners group. It also shows
> that the skills and interst in mathematics among the population is quite
> low and such calculations are of course not teached in the schools.
>
> If people and businesses get more and more indebted they simply have to
> rise their prices for work or products they sell, or to increase the
> volumes which again can't be done without increasing their loanes and so
> on until the environment as we see it collapses and with it the present
> type of economy.
>
> Per Almgren
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:15 PM
>> Subject: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I have been interested by the discussion on what is usury that has been
>>> taking place.
>>>
>>> R.H.Tawney, in his classic "Relligion and the Rise of Capitalism", after
>>> discussing and dismissing various types of dealing which involve risk,
>>> and
>>> so are not usurious, gives a definition as follows:
>>>
>>> "What remained to the end unlawful was that which appears in modern
>>> economics textbooks as 'pure interest' - interest as a fixed payment
>>> stipulated in advance for a loan of money or wares without risk to the
>>> lender.... The essence or usury was that it was certain, and that whether
>>> the borrower gained or lost, the usurer took his poind of flesh."
>>> (Transaction Publishers edition, 1998, p.42)
>>>
>>> Summarizing the present relationship between the Capitalist and the
>>> Christian approaches to life, where the former has effectively excluded
>>>
>>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>> area of commerce from the control of morality, he concludes: (ibid,
>>> p.286)
>>>
>>> "the quality in modern society which is most sharply opposed to the
>>>
>>>
>> teaching
>>
>>
>>> ascribed to the founder of the Christian faith ... consists in the
>>> assumption, accepted by most reformers with hardly less naivete than by
>>>
>>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>> defenders of the established order, that the attainment of material
>>> riches
>>> is the supreme object of human endeavour and the final criterion of human
>>> success...What is certain is that it is the negation of any system of
>>> thought or morals which can, except by a metaphor, be described as
>>> Christian. Compromise is as impossible between the church of Christ and
>>>
>>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>> idolatry of Wealth, which is the practical religion of Capitalist
>>>
>>>
>> societies,
>>
>>
>>> as it was between the Church and the State idolatry of the Roman Empire."
>>>
>>> In his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", Nobelist Frederick Soddy sets
>>>
>>>
>> out
>>
>>
>>> the psychology of this approach in the following words: (page 122)
>>>
>>> "Psychologically, the economic aim of the individual is, always has been,
>>> and probably always will be, to secure a permanent revenue independent of
>>> further effort, proof against the passage of time and the chance of
>>> circumstance, to support himself in old age and his family after him in
>>> perpetuity. He endeavours to do so by accumulating so much property in
>>> the
>>> heyday of his youth that he and his heirs may live on the interest on it
>>>
>>>
>> in
>>
>>
>>> perpetuity afterwards. Economic and social history is the conflict of
>>> this
>>> human aspiration with the laws of physics, which make such a perpetuum
>>> mobile impossible, and reduces the problem merely to the method by which
>>>
>>>
>> one
>>
>>
>>> individual may get another individual or the community into his debt and
>>> prevent repayment, so that the individual or community must share the
>>> produce of their efforts with their creditor."
>>>
>>>
>>> Something that concerns me about Douglas is the fact that he appears to
>>>
>>>
>> wish
>>
>>
>>> to superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a banking system not
>>> fundamentally changed from the present. As I see it, the toleration of
>>> interest (reward without risk), is in fact a means by which those who
>>>
>>>
>> issue
>>
>>
>>> credit become more and more wealthy at the expenses of the public, the
>>>
>>>
>> value
>>
>>
>>> of whose money is steadily eroded by inflation. It's certainly happening
>>>
>>>
>> at
>>
>>
>>> the present time, when the system at least in the United States appears
>>> to
>>> have been pushed to the limits, and all signs are pointing at the moment
>>>
>>>
>> to
>>
>>
>>> a very unpleasant period of "Stagflation". Maybe this is why Muslims, who
>>>
>>>
>> do
>>
>>
>>> not allow this type of banking, are so unpopular in the Capitalist world.
>>>
>>> Comments, anyone?
>>>
>>> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
>>> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>>> Phone (780) 483-5442
>>> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>> ------
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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