| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury. | | Date: | Saturday, June 28, 2008 13:33:35 (-0600) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <jmartinh @....ca>
|
My understanding of the foundation of the Bank of England in 1694
(suspiciously soon after the "Glorious Revolution" that deposed Catholic
James II from the throne of England, replacing him with the Dutch House of
Orange, and presumably Dutch finance), was that retired pirate William
Paterson loaned $1 million in gold from unspecified sources to the English
government, thus establishing England's National Debt, but also received the
right to have $1 million of its promissory notes made acceptable as "legal
tender".
I'm interested in this, because around this time, Pope Benedict XIV was
holding to the Catholic position of denouncing usury, in contrast to
Calvinism, which allowed it. This would be the basis of "Dutch Finance",
which in due course triggered the South Sea Bubble and Tulip Mania - let
alone other inflationary bubbles supported by the same type of investment,
including our own housing and mortgage bust, which I believe will be much
more serious than the "experts" have courage to admit. Wasn't it Mackenzie
King, Canadian Prime Minister, who said that "Usury in control can wreck a
nation"?
Paterson is reputed to have said "The Bank has the benefit of the money it
creates out of nothing".
Can anyone verify, or give me a source for this story?
Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
Phone (780) 483-5442
e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Inness" <drjiminness@gmail.com>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:29 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
The discussion on usury is interesting. Mr. Rawson's comment on costs
incurred by banks, is irrelevant. It is how banks acquire their
profits which is important, and the best way to understand this
matter, is to examine how the original bankers, the goldsmiths
acquired their profits. The banks issue credits at a rate of
interest. They are NOT concerned with whether the loan is used to make
something useful. They simply charge say 15%, that is usury. If the
borrower on-lends to a third party at say 20%, making 5% profit, that
is usury.
If the third party uses his loan in a manufacturing process to produce
say furniture, that is a productive use of the financial credit
issued, and one presumes that when he sells his product, he repays his
debt. Selling financial credit as if it were a commodity, is Usury,
and is destructive of any economic structure. It's just a matter of
time. Look at the world today, National indebtedness everywhere, and
no country able to liquidate its debt.See Protocol 21, Loans and
Credit.
The comment on Muslim banks not charging interest is not really
relevant. True they do not charge interest----they simply charge a
"Service Fee." which covers the situation rather neatly. Jim.
2008/6/26 John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com>:
> Perhaps. But don't forget banks have costs too. Salaries, rent, fleet,
> electricity etc. I'm sure they reinvest some of their intake, but to
> assume
> none of the interest charged comes out becomes purchasing power is
> ridiculous.
> Regards.
> John R.
>
>> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:53:43 +0200
>> From: almgren_per@telia.com
>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
>>
>> Joe Thomson skrev:
>> > (Martin wrote:-) Something that concerns me about Douglas is the fact
>> > that
>> > he appears to wish
>> > to superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a banking system not
>> > fundamentally changed from the present. As I see it, the toleration of
>> > interest (reward without risk), is in fact a means by which those who
>> > issue
>> > credit become more and more wealthy at the expenses of the public, the
>> > value
>> > of whose money is steadily eroded by inflation.
>> >
>> > (Joe comments:-) I think what you're saying about Douglas above may
>> > well
>> > be
>> > true, Martin.
>> >
>> > But is there really "reward without risk" for those who "issue credit"
>> > if
>> > the value of the public's money is steadily eroded by inflation?
>> >
>> > For is not the "public's money" the same money by which you say the
>> > issuers
>> > of credit will become "more and more wealthy"?
>> >
>> > And if it is, and it's being steadily eroded by inflation over time in
>> > terms of what it'll buy, there's certainly a "risk" present there, too,
>> > I
>> > would think.
>> >
>> The interest paid is actually causing the inflation since there is only
>> two types of costs includid in the price of goods and services.
>> One is the payment for labor, the other is payment to those who owns
>> money, either in the form of interest or in the form of profit.
>>
>> If not all of the received income is used directly for purchasing goods
>> or services, or given to other people who uses it directly for
>> purchasing goods or seriveces or given ... and so on, then the rest of
>> the money is either witheld (hoarded) or lended or "invested" in some
>> kind of "papers" that give a return, i.e. shares or bonds.
>>
>> Since the group who paid the costs for interest and profit doesn't get
>> the total sum back in form of wages and salaries they will have less
>> money than before unless they in one way or another borrows more money
>> from somebody outside this group. As times pass by they will get more
>> and more indebted and/or experience a rising rate of unemployment. (In
>> this description a person could belong to both groups if he or she
>> both get interst and a salry or wage.)
>>
>> The same problem occurs if people starts to save part of their wages and
>> salaries. What is then actually happening is that their personal
>> situation gradually move their "point of gravity" from the working group
>> to the owning group. For most of them, it won't improve their economical
>> situation. The cause of this is that the cost part of interest of goods
>> and services will rise as fast as this move goes on.
>>
>> In order to be a winner in this type of interest and profit system, your
>> part of the total invested and lended sum must be grater than yor part
>> of the total income from wages and salaries. Many years ago, I checked
>> this from a representative sample (about 13 000 housholds) of the
>> Swedish population from official statistics. The result was that only
>> two percent of the total population actually was to be found among the
>> winners. That means that a lot of people supports the present system
>> although they actually are among the losers, but they themselves
>> apparently think that they belong to the winners group. It also shows
>> that the skills and interst in mathematics among the population is quite
>> low and such calculations are of course not teached in the schools.
>>
>> If people and businesses get more and more indebted they simply have to
>> rise their prices for work or products they sell, or to increase the
>> volumes which again can't be done without increasing their loanes and so
>> on until the environment as we see it collapses and with it the present
>> type of economy.
>>
>> Per Almgren
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:15 PM
>> > Subject: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> I have been interested by the discussion on what is usury that has
>> >> been
>> >> taking place.
>> >>
>> >> R.H.Tawney, in his classic "Relligion and the Rise of Capitalism",
>> >> after
>> >> discussing and dismissing various types of dealing which involve risk,
>> >> and
>> >> so are not usurious, gives a definition as follows:
>> >>
>> >> "What remained to the end unlawful was that which appears in modern
>> >> economics textbooks as 'pure interest' - interest as a fixed payment
>> >> stipulated in advance for a loan of money or wares without risk to the
>> >> lender.... The essence or usury was that it was certain, and that
>> >> whether
>> >> the borrower gained or lost, the usurer took his poind of flesh."
>> >> (Transaction Publishers edition, 1998, p.42)
>> >>
>> >> Summarizing the present relationship between the Capitalist and the
>> >> Christian approaches to life, where the former has effectively
>> >> excluded
>> >>
>> > the
>> >
>> >> area of commerce from the control of morality, he concludes: (ibid,
>> >> p.286)
>> >>
>> >> "the quality in modern society which is most sharply opposed to the
>> >>
>> > teaching
>> >
>> >> ascribed to the founder of the Christian faith ... consists in the
>> >> assumption, accepted by most reformers with hardly less naivete than
>> >> by
>> >>
>> > the
>> >
>> >> defenders of the established order, that the attainment of material
>> >> riches
>> >> is the supreme object of human endeavour and the final criterion of
>> >> human
>> >> success...What is certain is that it is the negation of any system of
>> >> thought or morals which can, except by a metaphor, be described as
>> >> Christian. Compromise is as impossible between the church of Christ
>> >> and
>> >>
>> > the
>> >
>> >> idolatry of Wealth, which is the practical religion of Capitalist
>> >>
>> > societies,
>> >
>> >> as it was between the Church and the State idolatry of the Roman
>> >> Empire."
>> >>
>> >> In his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", Nobelist Frederick Soddy
>> >> sets
>> >>
>> > out
>> >
>> >> the psychology of this approach in the following words: (page 122)
>> >>
>> >> "Psychologically, the economic aim of the individual is, always has
>> >> been,
>> >> and probably always will be, to secure a permanent revenue independent
>> >> of
>> >> further effort, proof against the passage of time and the chance of
>> >> circumstance, to support himself in old age and his family after him
>> >> in
>> >> perpetuity. He endeavours to do so by accumulating so much property in
>> >> the
>> >> heyday of his youth that he and his heirs may live on the interest on
>> >> it
>> >>
>> > in
>> >
>> >> perpetuity afterwards. Economic and social history is the conflict of
>> >> this
>> >> human aspiration with the laws of physics, which make such a perpetuum
>> >> mobile impossible, and reduces the problem merely to the method by
>> >> which
>> >>
>> > one
>> >
>> >> individual may get another individual or the community into his debt
>> >> and
>> >> prevent repayment, so that the individual or community must share the
>> >> produce of their efforts with their creditor."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Something that concerns me about Douglas is the fact that he appears
>> >> to
>> >>
>> > wish
>> >
>> >> to superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a banking system not
>> >> fundamentally changed from the present. As I see it, the toleration of
>> >> interest (reward without risk), is in fact a means by which those who
>> >>
>> > issue
>> >
>> >> credit become more and more wealthy at the expenses of the public, the
>> >>
>> > value
>> >
>> >> of whose money is steadily eroded by inflation. It's certainly
>> >> happening
>> >>
>> > at
>> >
>> >> the present time, when the system at least in the United States
>> >> appears
>> >> to
>> >> have been pushed to the limits, and all signs are pointing at the
>> >> moment
>> >>
>> > to
>> >
>> >> a very unpleasant period of "Stagflation". Maybe this is why Muslims,
>> >> who
>> >>
>> > do
>> >
>> >> not allow this type of banking, are so unpopular in the Capitalist
>> >> world.
>> >>
>> >> Comments, anyone?
>> >>
>> >> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
>> >> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>> >> Phone (780) 483-5442
>> >> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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>> >>
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