| Subject: | RE: [socialcredit] Definition of usury. | | Date: | Monday, June 30, 2008 19:55:35 (+0000) | | From: | John G Rawson <johngrawson @.......com>
|
Or maybe an older version of "Britannica"? Rightly or wrongly I have been told that all mention of SC has been deleted from newer versions.
Regards.
John R.
> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:02:06 -0400
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> From: keithwilde@sympatico.ca
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
>
> To Martin: Did you by any chance pick up the supposed quote by William
> Paterson from Wikipedia? I note there this morning that the sole quote the
> article there attributes to him adds that the Bank has benefit of interest
> on the money it creates out of nothing. The short article says that in
> setting up the Bank, Paterson wrote a pamphlet on the subject, proposing it
> and giiving some explanation. I looked in the classic edition of
> Encyclopedia Britannica for its bio of Paterson, but the quotation does not
> appear there. Maybe a dictionary of famous quotations?
>
> Keith
>
> At 01:33 PM 28/06/2008 -0600, you wrote:
> >My understanding of the foundation of the Bank of England in 1694
> >(suspiciously soon after the "Glorious Revolution" that deposed Catholic
> >James II from the throne of England, replacing him with the Dutch House of
> >Orange, and presumably Dutch finance), was that retired pirate William
> >Paterson loaned $1 million in gold from unspecified sources to the English
> >government, thus establishing England's National Debt, but also received the
> >right to have $1 million of its promissory notes made acceptable as "legal
> >tender".
> >
> >I'm interested in this, because around this time, Pope Benedict XIV was
> >holding to the Catholic position of denouncing usury, in contrast to
> >Calvinism, which allowed it. This would be the basis of "Dutch Finance",
> >which in due course triggered the South Sea Bubble and Tulip Mania - let
> >alone other inflationary bubbles supported by the same type of investment,
> >including our own housing and mortgage bust, which I believe will be much
> >more serious than the "experts" have courage to admit. Wasn't it Mackenzie
> >King, Canadian Prime Minister, who said that "Usury in control can wreck a
> >nation"?
> >
> >Paterson is reputed to have said "The Bank has the benefit of the money it
> >creates out of nothing".
> >
> >Can anyone verify, or give me a source for this story?
> >
> >Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> >EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> >Phone (780) 483-5442
> >e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jim Inness" <drjiminness@gmail.com>
> >To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> >Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:29 AM
> >Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
> >
> >
> >The discussion on usury is interesting. Mr. Rawson's comment on costs
> >incurred by banks, is irrelevant. It is how banks acquire their
> >profits which is important, and the best way to understand this
> >matter, is to examine how the original bankers, the goldsmiths
> >acquired their profits. The banks issue credits at a rate of
> >interest. They are NOT concerned with whether the loan is used to make
> >something useful. They simply charge say 15%, that is usury. If the
> >borrower on-lends to a third party at say 20%, making 5% profit, that
> >is usury.
> >If the third party uses his loan in a manufacturing process to produce
> >say furniture, that is a productive use of the financial credit
> >issued, and one presumes that when he sells his product, he repays his
> >debt. Selling financial credit as if it were a commodity, is Usury,
> >and is destructive of any economic structure. It's just a matter of
> >time. Look at the world today, National indebtedness everywhere, and
> >no country able to liquidate its debt.See Protocol 21, Loans and
> >Credit.
> >
> >The comment on Muslim banks not charging interest is not really
> >relevant. True they do not charge interest----they simply charge a
> >"Service Fee." which covers the situation rather neatly. Jim.
> >
> >2008/6/26 John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com>:
> >> Perhaps. But don't forget banks have costs too. Salaries, rent, fleet,
> >> electricity etc. I'm sure they reinvest some of their intake, but to
> >> assume
> >> none of the interest charged comes out becomes purchasing power is
> >> ridiculous.
> >> Regards.
> >> John R.
> >>
> >>> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:53:43 +0200
> >>> From: almgren_per@telia.com
> >>> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
> >>>
> >>> Joe Thomson skrev:
> >>> > (Martin wrote:-) Something that concerns me about Douglas is the fact
> >>> > that
> >>> > he appears to wish
> >>> > to superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a banking system not
> >>> > fundamentally changed from the present. As I see it, the toleration of
> >>> > interest (reward without risk), is in fact a means by which those who
> >>> > issue
> >>> > credit become more and more wealthy at the expenses of the public, the
> >>> > value
> >>> > of whose money is steadily eroded by inflation.
> >>> >
> >>> > (Joe comments:-) I think what you're saying about Douglas above may
> >>> > well
> >>> > be
> >>> > true, Martin.
> >>> >
> >>> > But is there really "reward without risk" for those who "issue credit"
> >>> > if
> >>> > the value of the public's money is steadily eroded by inflation?
> >>> >
> >>> > For is not the "public's money" the same money by which you say the
> >>> > issuers
> >>> > of credit will become "more and more wealthy"?
> >>> >
> >>> > And if it is, and it's being steadily eroded by inflation over time in
> >>> > terms of what it'll buy, there's certainly a "risk" present there, too,
> >>> > I
> >>> > would think.
> >>> >
> >>> The interest paid is actually causing the inflation since there is only
> >>> two types of costs includid in the price of goods and services.
> >>> One is the payment for labor, the other is payment to those who owns
> >>> money, either in the form of interest or in the form of profit.
> >>>
> >>> If not all of the received income is used directly for purchasing goods
> >>> or services, or given to other people who uses it directly for
> >>> purchasing goods or seriveces or given ... and so on, then the rest of
> >>> the money is either witheld (hoarded) or lended or "invested" in some
> >>> kind of "papers" that give a return, i.e. shares or bonds.
> >>>
> >>> Since the group who paid the costs for interest and profit doesn't get
> >>> the total sum back in form of wages and salaries they will have less
> >>> money than before unless they in one way or another borrows more money
> >>> from somebody outside this group. As times pass by they will get more
> >>> and more indebted and/or experience a rising rate of unemployment. (In
> >>> this description a person could belong to both groups if he or she
> >>> both get interst and a salry or wage.)
> >>>
> >>> The same problem occurs if people starts to save part of their wages and
> >>> salaries. What is then actually happening is that their personal
> >>> situation gradually move their "point of gravity" from the working group
> >>> to the owning group. For most of them, it won't improve their economical
> >>> situation. The cause of this is that the cost part of interest of goods
> >>> and services will rise as fast as this move goes on.
> >>>
> >>> In order to be a winner in this type of interest and profit system, your
> >>> part of the total invested and lended sum must be grater than yor part
> >>> of the total income from wages and salaries. Many years ago, I checked
> >>> this from a representative sample (about 13 000 housholds) of the
> >>> Swedish population from official statistics. The result was that only
> >>> two percent of the total population actually was to be found among the
> >>> winners. That means that a lot of people supports the present system
> >>> although they actually are among the losers, but they themselves
> >>> apparently think that they belong to the winners group. It also shows
> >>> that the skills and interst in mathematics among the population is quite
> >>> low and such calculations are of course not teached in the schools.
> >>>
> >>> If people and businesses get more and more indebted they simply have to
> >>> rise their prices for work or products they sell, or to increase the
> >>> volumes which again can't be done without increasing their loanes and so
> >>> on until the environment as we see it collapses and with it the present
> >>> type of economy.
> >>>
> >>> Per Almgren
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > ----- Original Message -----
> >>> > From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> >>> > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> >>> > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:15 PM
> >>> > Subject: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >> I have been interested by the discussion on what is usury that has
> >>> >> been
> >>> >> taking place.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> R.H.Tawney, in his classic "Relligion and the Rise of Capitalism",
> >>> >> after
> >>> >> discussing and dismissing various types of dealing which involve risk,
> >>> >> and
> >>> >> so are not usurious, gives a definition as follows:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "What remained to the end unlawful was that which appears in modern
> >>> >> economics textbooks as 'pure interest' - interest as a fixed payment
> >>> >> stipulated in advance for a loan of money or wares without risk to the
> >>> >> lender.... The essence or usury was that it was certain, and that
> >>> >> whether
> >>> >> the borrower gained or lost, the usurer took his poind of flesh."
> >>> >> (Transaction Publishers edition, 1998, p.42)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Summarizing the present relationship between the Capitalist and the
> >>> >> Christian approaches to life, where the former has effectively
> >>> >> excluded
> >>> >>
> >>> > the
> >>> >
> >>> >> area of commerce from the control of morality, he concludes: (ibid,
> >>> >> p.286)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "the quality in modern society which is most sharply opposed to the
> >>> >>
> >>> > teaching
> >>> >
> >>> >> ascribed to the founder of the Christian faith ... consists in the
> >>> >> assumption, accepted by most reformers with hardly less naivete than
> >>> >> by
> >>> >>
> >>> > the
> >>> >
> >>> >> defenders of the established order, that the attainment of material
> >>> >> riches
> >>> >> is the supreme object of human endeavour and the final criterion of
> >>> >> human
> >>> >> success...What is certain is that it is the negation of any system of
> >>> >> thought or morals which can, except by a metaphor, be described as
> >>> >> Christian. Compromise is as impossible between the church of Christ
> >>> >> and
> >>> >>
> >>> > the
> >>> >
> >>> >> idolatry of Wealth, which is the practical religion of Capitalist
> >>> >>
> >>> > societies,
> >>> >
> >>> >> as it was between the Church and the State idolatry of the Roman
> >>> >> Empire."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> In his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", Nobelist Frederick Soddy
> >>> >> sets
> >>> >>
> >>> > out
> >>> >
> >>> >> the psychology of this approach in the following words: (page 122)
> >>> >>
> >>> >> "Psychologically, the economic aim of the individual is, always has
> >>> >> been,
> >>> >> and probably always will be, to secure a permanent revenue independent
> >>> >> of
> >>> >> further effort, proof against the passage of time and the chance of
> >>> >> circumstance, to support himself in old age and his family after him
> >>> >> in
> >>> >> perpetuity. He endeavours to do so by accumulating so much property in
> >>> >> the
> >>> >> heyday of his youth that he and his heirs may live on the interest on
> >>> >> it
> >>> >>
> >>> > in
> >>> >
> >>> >> perpetuity afterwards. Economic and social history is the conflict of
> >>> >> this
> >>> >> human aspiration with the laws of physics, which make such a perpetuum
> >>> >> mobile impossible, and reduces the problem merely to the method by
> >>> >> which
> >>> >>
> >>> > one
> >>> >
> >>> >> individual may get another individual or the community into his debt
> >>> >> and
> >>> >> prevent repayment, so that the individual or community must share the
> >>> >> produce of their efforts with their creditor."
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Something that concerns me about Douglas is the fact that he appears
> >>> >> to
> >>> >>
> >>> > wish
> >>> >
> >>> >> to superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a banking system not
> >>> >> fundamentally changed from the present. As I see it, the toleration of
> >>> >> interest (reward without risk), is in fact a means by which those who
> >>> >>
> >>> > issue
> >>> >
> >>> >> credit become more and more wealthy at the expenses of the public, the
> >>> >>
> >>> > value
> >>> >
> >>> >> of whose money is steadily eroded by inflation. It's certainly
> >>> >> happening
> >>> >>
> >>> > at
> >>> >
> >>> >> the present time, when the system at least in the United States
> >>> >> appears
> >>> >> to
> >>> >> have been pushed to the limits, and all signs are pointing at the
> >>> >> moment
> >>> >>
> >>> > to
> >>> >
> >>> >> a very unpleasant period of "Stagflation". Maybe this is why Muslims,
> >>> >> who
> >>> >>
> >>> > do
> >>> >
> >>> >> not allow this type of banking, are so unpopular in the Capitalist
> >>> >> world.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Comments, anyone?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> >>> >> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> >>> >> Phone (780) 483-5442
> >>> >> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
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