Dead
right on the practical side, Wally. But it depends on the context.
If I
understand correctly, the stated purpose of this group is to study the
ideas of CHD, not to promote them.
That, I believe, makes reasonable
the interminable emergence of contentious side-issues whenever we look
like getting round to reform itself.
Active promotion is what we do
elsewhere, surely?
Regards.
John
R.> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:13:43 -0600
>
From:
wmklinck@shaw.ca> To:
socialcredit@elistas.com>
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Definition of usury.
>
> Inflation of financial
prices is a violation of natural law.
> Unrepayable and
exponentially accumulating debt is a consequence of
> false conventions of
financial cost-accountancy. Debt under the
> present financial system
is both inevitable and unavoidable. It is
> ultimately financially
unrepayable and leads to crises of liquidity
> wherein foreclosures by
the lenders upon the pledged assets of the
> borrowers are an
intrinsic characteristic of the existing financial
> system. The
consequential, and undeniably intended, result of this
> reality is the
concentration and centralization of both economic and
> political power--a
process which advances at an accelerating and, one
> might even say
breathtaking, rate in the modern world. In a Social
> Credit dispensation
price inflation would not exist, nor would there
> be need for overall
consumer debt. The lending "business" (if one
> can accord to it a name
of such respect) essentially would be
> terminated so far as
consumers are concerned. Producers would be able
> to recover their entire
financial costs from consumers who would at
> all times have
sufficient financial income potentially to claim the
> product of industry and
provide, thereby, for the liquidation of all
> financial costs of
production within each "cycle" of production. In a
> Social Credit
dispensation, this discussion with all its sophistries
> would be irrelevant.
Would we not be better disposed to devote our
> energies to the
dispersion of information regarding Social Credit
> principles and policies
amongst the citizens, professional and lay, of
> our nations? As Social
Crediters, we are concerned with beneficial
> alternatives, not with
conformance to the existing order of false
> values and destructive
policies. In Christian theological terms, we
> seek the Kingdom of
'God--not obeisance to the dispensation of the
> Anti-Christ. In less
dramatic and more prosaic terms, if one prefers,
> we seek good over bad.
While, as has been said, it pays to understand
> one's adversaries, it
also is not helpful to become so obsessed with,
> or immersed in, the
activities and policies of one's adversaries as
> to neglect the positive
aspects of one's own goals and well-being.
>
> On conspiracies: A
conspiracy occurs when two or more people engage
> in some activity while
being less than candid with others concerning
> its actual nature,
either for selfish interest or, conceivably, even
> for some intended
altruistic end. Conspiracy not only exists but
> abounds throughout
society at various levels of activity and
> consciousness. One might
say, from practical experience and
> observation, that the
political process is rife with, perhaps the
> apotheosis of,
conspiracy. Being a quest for power, that is, in the
> existing order of
things, simply the "nature of the beast." I recall,
> if memory serves
correctly, once hearing the Roman senator Cicero
> cited as declaring that
politicians were not born but excreted.
> Cicero was situated so
as to have a rather graphic and realistic view
> of the circumstances
prevailing during his time--and circumstances do
> not appear to have
improved with the passage of time. There are petty
> conspiracies and grand
conspiracies (which may be also, of course,
> either petty or grand
follies)--those which affect a few and those
> which concern the
destiny of civilizations. Our concern is to
> understand and identify
policies, good and bad, to locate their
> sources, if possible and
if necessary, and to deal with them
> appropriately and
accordingly.
>
> Sincerely
>
Wally
>
>
> On 1-Jul-08, at 10:40
AM,
william_b_ryan@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > You are quite
right, Joe, that because of inflation there is "not
> > reward without
risk" to the recipients of interest. The biggest
> > risk is the risk of
default--the default insurance premium is the
> > largest component
of the totality of interest collected. Which is
> > why interest rates
on unsecured loans can be four or five times the
> > rates on secured
loans, such as mortgages.
> >
> > The larger question is
what in the world does risk have to do with
> > the morality of
collecting or paying interest? After all, in the
> > creditary economy,
interest is merely the service charge for
> > financial services
rendered. The so-called moral proscription is
> > based on fallacious
Aristotelian economics and false translations
> > from the ancient
Scriptures. We in the twenty-first century should
> > be above such
errors. We are after all expected to be educated and
> > open-minded
people.
> >
> > Lenders, as do all entrepreneurs,
attempt to minimize risk. It is
> > perfectly moral to
do so, so long as they are playing within the
> > rules.
>
>
> > Besides, the default premium and adjustments for
inflation are only
>
> two of the components of interest collected. The others are to
> > cover ordinary
business expenses, including salaries and wages; plus
> > a mark-up for a
reasonable profit.
> >
> >
> >
--------------replying to-------------------
> > Subject: Re:
[socialcredit] Definition of usury.
> > Date: Tuesday, June 24,
2008 18:49:06 (-0700)
> > From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu
@....ca>
> > In reply to: Message 5405 (written by Martin
Hattersley)
> >
> > (Martin wrote:-) Something that
concerns me about Douglas is the
> > fact that he
appears to wish to superimpose his Social Credit
> > remedies on a
banking system not fundamentally changed from the
> > present. As I see
it, the toleration of interest (reward without
> > risk), is in fact a
means by which those who issue credit become
> > more and more
wealthy at the expenses of the public, the value of
> > whose money is
steadily eroded by inflation.
> >
> > (Joe comments:-) I
think what you're saying about Douglas above may
> > well be true,
Martin.
> >
> > But is there really "reward without
risk" for those who "issue
> > credit" if the
value of the public's money is steadily eroded by
> > inflation?
>
>
> > For is not the "public's money" the same money by which
you say the
> >
issuers of credit will become "more and more wealthy"?
>
>
> > And if it is, and it's being steadily eroded by
inflation over
> >
time in terms of what it'll buy, there's certainly a "risk" present
> > there, too, I would
think.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original
Message -----
> > From: "Martin Hattersley" <
jmartinh@shaw.ca>
> > To:
<
socialcredit@elistas.com>
>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:15 PM
> > Subject:
[socialcredit] Definition of usury.
> >
> > I have been
interested by the discussion on what is usury that has
> > been taking
place.
> >
> > R.H.Tawney, in his classic "Relligion and
the Rise of Capitalism",
> > after discussing
and dismissing various types of dealing which
> > involve risk, and
so are not usurious, gives a definition as follows:
> >
>
> "What remained to the end unlawful was that which appears in
modern
> >
economics textbooks as 'pure interest' - interest as a fixed payment
> > stipulated in
advance for a loan of money or wares without risk to
> > the lender.... The
essence or usury was that it was certain, and
> > that whether the
borrower gained or lost, the usurer took his poind
> > of flesh."
>
> (Transaction Publishers edition, 1998, p.42)
> >
>
> Summarizing the present relationship between the Capitalist and
the
> > Christian
approaches to life, where the former has effectively
> > excluded the area
of commerce from the control of morality, he
> > concludes: (ibid,
p.286)
> >
> > "the quality in modern society which is
most sharply opposed to the
> > teaching ascribed
to the founder of the Christian faith ... consists
> > in the assumption,
accepted by most reformers with hardly less
> > naivete than by the
defenders of the established order, that the
> > attainment of
material riches is the supreme object of human
> > endeavour and the
final criterion of human success...What is certain
> > is that it is the
negation of any system of thought or morals which
> > can, except by a
metaphor, be described as Christian. Compromise is
> > as impossible
between the church of Christ and the idolatry of
> > Wealth, which is
the practical religion of Capitalist societies, as
> > it was between the
Church and the State idolatry of the Roman Empire."
> >
>
> In his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", Nobelist Frederick
Soddy
> > sets out
the psychology of this approach in the following words:
> > (page 122)
>
>
> > "Psychologically, the economic aim of the individual is,
always has
> >
been, and probably always will be, to secure a permanent revenue
> > independent of
further effort, proof against the passage of time and
> > the chance of
circumstance, to support himself in old age and his
> > family after him in
perpetuity. He endeavours to do so by
> > accumulating so
much property in the heyday of his youth that he and
> > his heirs may live
on the interest on it in perpetuity afterwards.
> > Economic and social
history is the conflict of this human aspiration
> > with the laws of
physics, which make such a perpetuum mobile
> > impossible, and
reduces the problem merely to the method by which
> > one individual may
get another individual or the community into his
> > debt and prevent
repayment, so that the individual or community must
> > share the produce
of their efforts with their creditor."
> >
> > Something
that concerns me about Douglas is the fact that he appears
> > to wish to
superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a banking
> > system not
fundamentally changed from the present. As I see it, the
> > toleration of
interest (reward without risk), is in fact a means by
> > which those who
issue credit become more and more wealthy at the
> > expenses of the
public, the value of whose money is steadily eroded
> > by inflation. It's
certainly happening at the present time, when the
> > system at least in
the United States appears to have been pushed to
> > the limits, and all
signs are pointing at the moment to a very
> > unpleasant period
of "Stagflation". Maybe this is why Muslims, who
> > do not allow this
type of banking, are so unpopular in the
> > Capitalist
world.
> >
> > Comments, anyone?
> >
>
> Martin Hattersley,
> > 5929-189 St.,
> > EDMONTON
AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> > Phone (780) 483-5442
> > e-mail
<
jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>
>
> >
> >
> >
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