| Subject: | [socialcredit] Re: [SPAM] Re: [socialcredit] Re: Definition of usury. | | Date: | Saturday, July 5, 2008 09:45:13 (+0200) | | From: | Per Almgren <almgren_per @.....com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5442 (written by Joe Thomson) |
Joe Thomson skrev:
> I think there's considerable evidence that Douglas himself did have a
> 'benevolent' attitude towards the Banks. I think the Banks could do
> quite well under a Social Credit system. But the Banks certainly did
> not seem to have a 'benevolent' attitude towards Douglas!
>
> Either they /did not/ understand what he was proposing, (and that's
> certainly a possibility when we look at the various, and all too
> often erroneous interpretations of his writings some of his
> "supporters" believed, and still believe ); or they /did/ understand,
> and were opposed for the various reasons often stated, i.e., they had
> as their objective the imposition of a policy of a contrary
> philosophy to that of genuine Social Credit.
>
> As regards the latter, without disregarding the considerable evidence
> that exists to support that position, if we assume that there should
> always be a presumption of innocence before final proof of guilt, it
> seems to me that there's really only one way to determine the issue.
>
> Put 'Social Credit' economics in a form that IS understandable, bury
> once and for all this nonsense about "interest/usury" and the supposed
> evils of "fractional reserve banking", and present Social Credit in a
> manner that clearly explains and elaborates on the 'principles'
> involved, and its 'objective', and note well why, and from where,
> any opposition comes. If there /is/ a Banker's 'conspiracy', against
> some necessary reforms which I don't believe are in any ways harmful
> to the legitimate business of 'banking', let it reveal itself. We've
> certainly had precious little luck other ways.
The problems with interest on money (the unearned income part) and with
"fractional reserve banking" would not disappear by just ignoring them.
Per Almgren
>
> Joe
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* keith wilde <mailto:kwilde@tc-biodiversity.org>
> *To:* socialcredit@elistas.com <mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:30 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [socialcredit] Re: Definition of usury.
>
> As I recollect it, the question of usury was raised by Martin and
> bore directly on the attitude of Douglas toward banks. That
> seemed to me to be quite consistent with a discussion of Social
> Credit because I also seem to recall comments by Bill Ryan on
> several occasions that suggest a benevolent attitude toward banks
> as a useful, even integral part of a healthy economy--i.e. one
> operated on social credit principles. That seems like a useful
> point to clear up in the interest of propagating the principles.
>
> Keith
>
> */Wallace Klinck <wmklinck@shaw.ca>/* wrote:
>
> I assume, John, that in providing a forum to explore Social
> Credit philosophy and policy to which others are invited and
> provided access to posted information, with links to archived
> material as well, we are attempting to promote Social Credit
> by expanding the circle of potential and actual supporters.
> My concern is that we should attempt to do this in the most
> efficient and effective manner by concentrating on Social
> Credit without getting caught up in excessive debate about
> other matters which confuse, detract and lead down all sorts
> of rabbit trails. Social Crediters are not engaged in a
> parlor discussion. As Douglas said, we can debate these
> matters for eternity but nothing is going to happen until we
> engage in action to make things happen. I would hope that
> those who find the Social Credit position convincing will go
> out into their communities and engage in concrete activity
> directed at expanding awareness of Douglas's ideas at various
> levels of society. With the pathetic state of the world as it
> is presently, we can hardly afford to waste our resources
> while pursuing the task of working toward practical solutions
> in a Social Credit context. I consider the discussion group
> to be an important element in the active promotion of Social
> Credit which will lead to various practical efforts on the
> part of participants to bring the message to the outside
> world. I think that they should have the advantage of being
> exposed to sound Social Credit ideas insofar as this is
> possible, this being essential to their own understanding and
> ability to carry on with the work of advancing Social Credit
> in the real world. In other words, I think we are engaged in
> a comprehensive and combined task which embraces the educative
> element as well as the practical strategy involved.
> Sincerely
> Wally
>
>
> On 1-Jul-08, at 6:28 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>
>> Dead right on the practical side, Wally. But it depends on
>> the context.
>> If I understand correctly, the stated purpose of this group
>> is to study the ideas of CHD, not to promote them.
>> That, I believe, makes reasonable the interminable emergence
>> of contentious side-issues whenever we look like getting
>> round to reform itself.
>> Active promotion is what we do elsewhere, surely?
>> Regards.
>> John R.
>>
>>
>> > Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:13:43 -0600
>> > From: wmklinck@shaw.ca <mailto:wmklinck@shaw.ca>
>> > To: socialcredit@elistas.com <mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Definition of usury.
>> >
>> > Inflation of financial prices is a violation of natural law.
>> > Unrepayable and exponentially accumulating debt is a
>> consequence of
>> > false conventions of financial cost-accountancy. Debt under the
>> > present financial system is both inevitable and unavoidable.
>> It is
>> > ultimately financially unrepayable and leads to crises of
>> liquidity
>> > wherein foreclosures by the lenders upon the pledged assets
>> of the
>> > borrowers are an intrinsic characteristic of the existing
>> financial
>> > system. The consequential, and undeniably intended, result
>> of this
>> > reality is the concentration and centralization of both
>> economic and
>> > political power--a process which advances at an accelerating
>> and, one
>> > might even say breathtaking, rate in the modern world. In a
>> Social
>> > Credit dispensation price inflation would not exist, nor
>> would there
>> > be need for overall consumer debt. The lending "business"
>> (if one
>> > can accord to it a name of such respect) essentially would be
>> > terminated so far as consumers are concerned. Producers
>> would be able
>> > to recover their entire financial costs from consumers who
>> would at
>> > all times have sufficient financial income potentially to
>> claim the
>> > product of industry and provide, thereby, for the
>> liquidation of all
>> > financial costs of production within each "cycle" of
>> production. In a
>> > Social Credit dispensation, this discussion with all its
>> sophistries
>> > would be irrelevant. Would we not be better disposed to
>> devote our
>> > energies to the dispersion of information regarding Social
>> Credit
>> > principles and policies amongst the citizens, professional
>> and lay, of
>> > our nations? As Social Crediters, we are concerned with
>> beneficial
>> > alternatives, not with conformance to the existing order of
>> false
>> > values and destructive policies. In Christian theological
>> terms, we
>> > seek the Kingdom of 'God--not obeisance to the dispensation
>> of the
>> > Anti-Christ. In less dramatic and more prosaic terms, if one
>> prefers,
>> > we seek good over bad. While, as has been said, it pays to
>> understand
>> > one's adversaries, it also is not helpful to become so
>> obsessed with,
>> > or immersed in, the activities and policies of one's
>> adversaries as
>> > to neglect the positive aspects of one's own goals and
>> well-being.
>> >
>> > On conspiracies: A conspiracy occurs when two or more people
>> engage
>> > in some activity while being less than candid with others
>> concerning
>> > its actual nature, either for selfish interest or,
>> conceivably, even
>> > for some intended altruistic end. Conspiracy not only exists
>> but
>> > abounds throughout society at various levels of activity and
>> > consciousness. One might say, from practical experience and
>> > observation, that the political process is rife with,
>> perhaps the
>> > apotheosis of, conspiracy. Being a quest for power, that is,
>> in the
>> > existing order of things, simply the "nature of the beast."
>> I recall,
>> > if memory serves correctly, once hearing the Roman senator
>> Cicero
>> > cited as declaring that politicians were not born but excreted.
>> > Cicero was situated so as to have a rather graphic and
>> realistic view
>> > of the circumstances prevailing during his time--and
>> circumstances do
>> > not appear to have improved with the passage of time. There
>> are petty
>> > conspiracies and grand conspiracies (which may be also, of
>> course,
>> > either petty or grand follies)--those which affect a few and
>> those
>> > which concern the destiny of civilizations. Our concern is to
>> > understand and identify policies, good and bad, to locate their
>> > sources, if possible and if necessary, and to deal with them
>> > appropriately and accordingly.
>> >
>> > Sincerely
>> > Wally
>> >
>> >
>> > On 1-Jul-08, at 10:40 AM, william_b_ryan@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:william_b_ryan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > You are quite right, Joe, that because of inflation there
>> is "not
>> > > reward without risk" to the recipients of interest. The
>> biggest
>> > > risk is the risk of default--the default insurance premium
>> is the
>> > > largest component of the totality of interest collected.
>> Which is
>> > > why interest rates on unsecured loans can be four or five
>> times the
>> > > rates on secured loans, such as mortgages.
>> > >
>> > > The larger question is what in the world does risk have to
>> do with
>> > > the morality of collecting or paying interest? After all,
>> in the
>> > > creditary economy, interest is merely the service charge for
>> > > financial services rendered. The so-called moral
>> proscription is
>> > > based on fallacious Aristotelian economics and false
>> translations
>> > > from the ancient Scriptures. We in the twenty-first
>> century should
>> > > be above such errors. We are after all expected to be
>> educated and
>> > > open-minded people.
>> > >
>> > > Lenders, as do all entrepreneurs, attempt to minimize
>> risk. It is
>> > > perfectly moral to do so, so long as they are playing
>> within the
>> > > rules.
>> > >
>> > > Besides, the default premium and adjustments for inflation
>> are only
>> > > two of the components of interest collected. The others
>> are to
>> > > cover ordinary business expenses, including salaries and
>> wages; plus
>> > > a mark-up for a reasonable profit.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --------------replying to-------------------
>> > > Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
>> > > Date: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 18:49:06 (-0700)
>> > > From: Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
>> > > In reply to: Message 5405 (written by Martin Hattersley)
>> > >
>> > > (Martin wrote:-) Something that concerns me about Douglas
>> is the
>> > > fact that he appears to wish to superimpose his Social Credit
>> > > remedies on a banking system not fundamentally changed
>> from the
>> > > present. As I see it, the toleration of interest (reward
>> without
>> > > risk), is in fact a means by which those who issue credit
>> become
>> > > more and more wealthy at the expenses of the public, the
>> value of
>> > > whose money is steadily eroded by inflation.
>> > >
>> > > (Joe comments:-) I think what you're saying about Douglas
>> above may
>> > > well be true, Martin.
>> > >
>> > > But is there really "reward without risk" for those who
>> "issue
>> > > credit" if the value of the public's money is steadily
>> eroded by
>> > > inflation?
>> > >
>> > > For is not the "public's money" the same money by which
>> you say the
>> > > issuers of credit will become "more and more wealthy"?
>> > >
>> > > And if it is, and it's being steadily eroded by inflation
>> over
>> > > time in terms of what it'll buy, there's certainly a
>> "risk" present
>> > > there, too, I would think.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca
>> <mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca>>
>> > > To: <socialcredit@elistas.com
>> <mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com>>
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 4:15 PM
>> > > Subject: [socialcredit] Definition of usury.
>> > >
>> > > I have been interested by the discussion on what is usury
>> that has
>> > > been taking place.
>> > >
>> > > R.H.Tawney, in his classic "Relligion and the Rise of
>> Capitalism",
>> > > after discussing and dismissing various types of dealing
>> which
>> > > involve risk, and so are not usurious, gives a definition
>> as follows:
>> > >
>> > > "What remained to the end unlawful was that which appears
>> in modern
>> > > economics textbooks as 'pure interest' - interest as a
>> fixed payment
>> > > stipulated in advance for a loan of money or wares without
>> risk to
>> > > the lender.... The essence or usury was that it was
>> certain, and
>> > > that whether the borrower gained or lost, the usurer took
>> his poind
>> > > of flesh."
>> > > (Transaction Publishers edition, 1998, p.42)
>> > >
>> > > Summarizing the present relationship between the
>> Capitalist and the
>> > > Christian approaches to life, where the former has
>> effectively
>> > > excluded the area of commerce from the control of
>> morality, he
>> > > concludes: (ibid, p.286)
>> > >
>> > > "the quality in modern society which is most sharply
>> opposed to the
>> > > teaching ascribed to the founder of the Christian faith
>> ... consists
>> > > in the assumption, accepted by most reformers with hardly
>> less
>> > > naivete than by the defenders of the established order,
>> that the
>> > > attainment of material riches is the supreme object of human
>> > > endeavour and the final criterion of human success...What
>> is certain
>> > > is that it is the negation of any system of thought or
>> morals which
>> > > can, except by a metaphor, be described as Christian.
>> Compromise is
>> > > as impossible between the church of Christ and the
>> idolatry of
>> > > Wealth, which is the practical religion of Capitalist
>> societies, as
>> > > it was between the Church and the State idolatry of the
>> Roman Empire."
>> > >
>> > > In his "Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt", Nobelist
>> Frederick Soddy
>> > > sets out the psychology of this approach in the following
>> words:
>> > > (page 122)
>> > >
>> > > "Psychologically, the economic aim of the individual is,
>> always has
>> > > been, and probably always will be, to secure a permanent
>> revenue
>> > > independent of further effort, proof against the passage
>> of time and
>> > > the chance of circumstance, to support himself in old age
>> and his
>> > > family after him in perpetuity. He endeavours to do so by
>> > > accumulating so much property in the heyday of his youth
>> that he and
>> > > his heirs may live on the interest on it in perpetuity
>> afterwards.
>> > > Economic and social history is the conflict of this human
>> aspiration
>> > > with the laws of physics, which make such a perpetuum mobile
>> > > impossible, and reduces the problem merely to the method
>> by which
>> > > one individual may get another individual or the community
>> into his
>> > > debt and prevent repayment, so that the individual or
>> community must
>> > > share the produce of their efforts with their creditor."
>> > >
>> > > Something that concerns me about Douglas is the fact that
>> he appears
>> > > to wish to superimpose his Social Credit remedies on a
>> banking
>> > > system not fundamentally changed from the present. As I
>> see it, the
>> > > toleration of interest (reward without risk), is in fact a
>> means by
>> > > which those who issue credit become more and more wealthy
>> at the
>> > > expenses of the public, the value of whose money is
>> steadily eroded
>> > > by inflation. It's certainly happening at the present
>> time, when the
>> > > system at least in the United States appears to have been
>> pushed to
>> > > the limits, and all signs are pointing at the moment to a
>> very
>> > > unpleasant period of "Stagflation". Maybe this is why
>> Muslims, who
>> > > do not allow this type of banking, are so unpopular in the
>> > > Capitalist world.
>> > >
>> > > Comments, anyone?
>> > >
>> > > Martin Hattersley,
>> > > 5929-189 St.,
>> > > EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
>> > > Phone (780) 483-5442
>> > > e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca <mailto:jmartinh@shaw.ca>>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
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