| Subject: | [socialcredit] Re: [SPAM] Re: [socialcredit] Re: Definition of usury. | | Date: | Tuesday, July 8, 2008 00:08:33 (+0200) | | From: | Per Almgren <almgren_per @.....com>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5453 (written by Swieto Radosci) |
Swieto Radosci skrev:
> Hi Joe, I understand that JAK practice may look deceptive under US
> law, but certainly it isn't so under European law, which probably is
> better construed to cover legally such experiments in the field of
> alternative banking.
>
> On the other hand it is hard to compare systems based on different
> philosophies, because many aspects of any calculation are ignored,
> especially social aspects.
> Banks should serve us, people, not vice versa. I am sure that people
> in Sweden are wise enough to know, how much they pay for their credit.
> They also know for what social purposes JAK Bank's (maybe higher than
> normal) profits are spent and imho that's the clue of JAK experiment.
>
> Kristof Levandovski
>
There is no profit paid out from the JAK Bank to the owners. The charged
fee percentage per year for loans are now 1.3 % of the original amount
lended and is a fixed amount in SEK (Swedish crowns) during the
amortization time. Calculated on the average debt amount it is somewhat
less than 2.6 % per year. Details can be found on www.jak.se, also in
the English language (click on the small British flag.). There is also a
example loan calculator in the English version but the comparision to an
ordinary bankloan is not correct in my opinion. I have informed them of
that but they apparently think it is OK and the Swedish Finance
Inspection Board has not demanded them to change it.
I myself left the work for JAK in december 1992 but the main design of
savings-loan still used is mine.
For the moment I have not time to comment the "real interest" but I plan
to do this within two weeks. I suppose that you who have questioned it
think about what we in Sweden call effective interest rate which is the
rate of interest that is calculated from the conditions that the sum of
the interestbearing in- and outpayments at different times is zero.
Per Almgren
> Joe Thomson pisze:
>> Kristof, the issue Bill Ryan raised concerning the JAK Bank is NOT
>> one of
>> "higher fees" or "lower fees" in regards to the choice of the first and
>> more services, or the latter and less services, per se, but rather
>> whether
>> it is clear to JAK's customers what they will REALLY be paying in
>> interest
>> for the amount of the loan actually available to them before they
>> sign up
>> for one.
>>
>> It is certainly up to those customers in any free-market democracy to
>> decide
>> where they will or will not bank. And hopefully they'll have many
>> financial service providers from which to choose, and there'll be
>> 'competition' amongst them to be innovative and provide the level of
>> service
>> desired. And we will always be able to pick the one who best serves
>> our
>> needs based entirely on our own preferences.
>>
>> But to make a truly meaningful comparison in regards to the COST of any
>> loan there certainly should be legislation in place similar to the
>> American
>> "Truth in Lending" law.
>>
>> And from what Bill has explained to Per and all of us, just now and
>> also at
>> times past, it would seem that the actual cost of a loan from JAK
>> Bank is
>> not only higher, but would constitute a deceptive trade practice under
>> American law. Since the 'true' interest rate cost of what he'll be
>> paying
>> for what he's actually getting is apparently not revealed to the Bank's
>> customer beforehand.
>>
>> So far as "Social Credit" is concerned, we favour the
>> 'de-centralization' of
>> banking, and freedom of choice for the customer in that area as in all
>> others.
>>
>> And if the small Bank or other financial services provider can offer
>> better
>> services, or innovative ways to deliver its products, all the better for
>> society as a whole and its customers as individuals.
>>
>> But the calculation of the 'true'interest rate for comparative
>> purposes, so
>> the customer knows just what he's paying for in regards to what he's
>> actually getting, should certainly be revealed beforehand so he can
>> make an
>> informed choice.
>>
>> Joe Thomson
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Swieto Radosci" <radosc@radosc.x.pl>
>> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 4:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Definition of usury.
>>
>>
>>
>>> In democracies bank customers should have a choice how much fee they
>>> want to pay for banking services.
>>>
>>> It is normal that little shop has higher margin than a hipermarket, as
>>> it is obvious that small ecological egg costs more than a big one from
>>> hen's concentration camp. And it is normal that some customers prefer
>>> smaller eggs and higher fees for more local services (supporting
>>> locality as a value), as it supposedly occurs in small JAK bank,
>>> competing with global banking system.
>>>
>>> It seems abnormal that some legal acts prohibit free competition in the
>>> local banking area. As I see it from WB Ryan's explanation, US
>>> regulations cannot be treated as a pattern to follow because they
>>> prohibit and penalize innovations and free competition in the banking
>>> industry, which is glue of every modern and civil society.:)
>>>
>>> Higher fees? Why not if we locally decide who and for what spends them
>>> and while we recirculate them locally for further benefits?
>>>
>>> Kristof Levandovski
>>>
>>> william_b_ryan@yahoo.com pisze:
>>>
>>>> The problems with interest on money (the unearned income part) and
>>>> with
>>>>
>> "fractional reserve banking" would not disappear by just ignoring them.
>>
>>>> Per Almgren
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> What is the "unearned income part" of interest on money? Perhaps you
>>>>
>> will tell us, Per.
>>
>>>> It is most definitely earned and in the modern creditary economy is
>>>> the
>>>>
>> service charge for a financial service being rendered, which includes
>> four
>> components: 1) ordinary business expenses incurred in supplying the
>> service,
>> including salaries and wages being paid to employees; 2) default
>> premium to
>> cover loans being defaulted; 3) inflation adjustment to cover
>> inflation; and
>> 4) profit.
>>
>>>> Your problem, Per, is that you have Gesellist ideology imprinted on
>>>> your
>>>>
>> brain, and can't see that the so-called "interest free" bank you are
>> associated with (JAK) actually charges several times the interest rate
>> charged by conventional banks.
>>
>>>> The reason for this is that JAK requires forced savings that are
>>>> not in
>>>>
>> reduction to principal, such that the various fees being charged are
>> against
>> what is in reality a much smaller principal than JAK claims, effectively
>> increasing substantially the real interest rates being charged.
>>
>>>> See the attached diagram. Notice that approximately half way through
>>>>
>> the amortization period the effective principal has become zero.
>> Past that
>> point it has effectively become negative, yet the borrower continues
>> to pay
>> fees to JAK on non-existent principal.
>>
>>>> >From the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago:
>>>>
>>>> "Required (compensating) deposit balances: A bank may require that a
>>>>
>> borrower maintain a certain percentage of the loan amount on deposit
>> as a
>> condition for obtaining the loan. The borrower, then, does not have
>> the use
>> of the entire loan amount but rather the use of the loan amount less the
>> amount that must be kept on deposit. The effective rate of interest is
>> greater than it would be if no compensating deposit balance were
>> required."
>>
>>>> For claiming to be "interest free" the JAK bank would be a deceptive
>>>>
>> trade practice in the United States.
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list
>>>> are at
>>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email radosc@radosc.x.pl
>>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>>> You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
>>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
>> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
>> You're subscribed to this list with the email radosc@waw.pdi.net
>> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>>
>>
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
> http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
> You're subscribed to this list with the email almgren_per@telia.com
> For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
>
|
Re: [SPAM] Re: [so
Reply to this message