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Message 5746
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| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" | | Date: | Monday, December 1, 2008 19:45:30 (-0800) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
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I agree with what Martin has written below, John.
Though like Bill mentioned, it might be better if the taxing mechanism and
the dividend/discount mechanisms were kept separate.
If we were to use the existing GST bureaucracy in Canada to handle the
discount, I think we would have to rebate the merchant rather than the
consumer. This would, at present, only be possible monthly.
While the consumer is still getting the product at a reduced price, and the
merchant isn't really taking a loss by the amount he's reduced it, there
may be some very good reasons why it might be better done by crediting the
consumer the discount as a rebate after he's paid the regular price for the
product. And on a more timely basis than monthly.
It strikes me that rather than using the GST mechanism, (which I think
certainly could be done), we might be better instead to utilize the "Point
of Sale" electronic debit card terminals most businesses now have.
My own feeling is that the shorter the period over which the discount could
be determined , and subsequently paid to the consumer at that rate, the
better. The way in which it's traditionally been thought to be calculable
might have to be re-visited.
We want it to become a normal part of every retail transaction, and not, as
might be the case if the periods were extended, something where people start
to hold back purchasing items in the latter part of one period in hopes of
getting a bigger discount in the next period.
We've seen something similar to this happen in the lumber industry here
under one of the previous Softwood Lumber Agreements we had with the USA.
Where the size of the impending duty was based on the volume shipped each
quarter. Mills would cut like there was no tomorrow in the first month of
one quarterly period, then crawl virtually to a standstill through the
remainder of it.
That's a terribly inefficient way to run any business, and I don't think
we'd want to see anything like that develop in what I, for one, feel is one
of the most beneficial aspects of applied Social Credit.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
> I have always regarded the "Just Price" concept as being a percentage
> discount from the price that would otherwise be charged to the consumer,
as
> businesses often do today. the difference being that the discount would be
> paid by new credit issued from a National Credit Office, in accordance
with
> the needs of the economy, in order to balance financial demand for
products
> with available supply. It would be calculated on a macroeconomic basis,
and
> would not have to contain any element of price control of individual
> products.
>
> I see no difficulty in adapting existing sales tax mechanisms to reverse
> themselves and pay such a discount - certainly likely to be a very popular
> move.
>
> The normal processes of competition should serve to prevent profiteering
by
> any particular business.
>
> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442
> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:46 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
>
> This discussion is purely with the mechanism of paying it, for which I see
> no problems and several solutions, but:Martin uses the term "just price"
> which implies conmditions for its payment, i.e. a means of containing
price
> inflation. How do we establish "just prices" for a multitude's multitude
of
> items, each in different parts of a country each with different transport
> costs, local taxes, etc?
> Others insist that it shall be a discount of a certain percentage of the
> price, whatever it is. Which, to me, in the sellers market that SC would
> establish, would lay the situation completely open to profiteering.
> A bureaucratic nightmare to beat all socialist efforts anywhere, or
> uncontrolled inflation?
> If someone can answer these points, I too will faour the system. But I've
> been asking for these answers for decades now.
> John R.> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:07:10 -0800> From:
> william_b_ryan@yahoo.com> To: socialcredit@elistas.com> Subject: Re:
> [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"> > It would be
> equivalent to a "Goods and Services Tax" in reverse, but I would be
> reluctant to accept a commingling of the tax and dividend systems. Too
much
> of an incentive to increase the tax rate to offset the dividend due the
> people.> > At the very least money created by the Mint would need the
> cooperation of the banks. During and after the Civil War, the banks
refused
> to accept deposits of Greenbacks, which greatly limited their
acceptability.
> The banks achieved complete victory with the passage of the Specie
> Resumption Act, which mandated that the Greenbacks be redeemed by the
> government in gold. This greatly enriched the speculators who had amassed
> Greenbacks at steep discount.> > Legal tender status is not sufficient to
> guarantee acceptability. The Greenbacks had legal tender status that was
> eventually approved by the Supreme Court. Legal tender status did not
> require the banks to accept them for deposit. It only required that
> creditors accept them in payment for debt. But Alberta didn't even have
the
> legal authority to convey legal tender status to its notes.> > All money
is
> debt by its creator to its bearer. That will always be the case. It is a
> subset of the more general concept of contract for future performance,
which
> fits very well with Douglas' "ticket" metaphor. See the Innes papers at >
> http://www.geocities.com/new_economics/innes/>; > > > > --- On Sun,
11/30/08,
> Martin Hattersley <jmartinh@shaw.ca> wrote:> > Yes, I'm certainly in
favour
> of a "Just Price", which in Canada could easily be achieved through making
> our "Goods and Services Tax" mechanism go into reverse as a subsidy on
> prices, so introducing money into the economy in a way that actually
> reverses inflation, that money being created by the Mint rather than the
> banking system. > > The one essential thing we have to do is to create our
> money supply without creating debt at the same time, and there's certainly
> no sense in spending money on infrastructure (or wars) if what we get from
> it all isn't anything we need. > > Martin Hattersley> > >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------->
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