| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" | | Date: | Wednesday, November 26, 2008 08:23:26 (-0800) | | From: | william_b_ryan <william_b_ryan @.....com>
|
Is this the same organization that describes itself as "the successor to the
Socialist Party, USA, the party of Eugene Debs, Norman Thomas and Bayard Rustin
and is a member of the Socialist International" at its Website http://www.socialdemocrats.org/ or some rival organization? If
it is the "successor" then the original organization must have been dissolved.
What happened to it? Are there various rival competing "successors" today?
--- On Wed, 11/26/08, adavans@aol.com <adavans@aol.com> wrote:
> From: adavans@aol.com <adavans@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 8:42 AM
> Funny you should mention socialists. I'm not exactly a
> socialist, but I am a member of SDUSA/Socialist Party of
> America. (if there were a proper Christian Democratic party
> around I'd camp there!) We operate mostly within the
> Democratic Party and are open to working with Republicans as
> well. The few times I have brought up social credit in our
> national committee meetings it has been well received.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> To: Socred elistas <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:51 am
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
> "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks, Wally. It's all becoming so transparently
> clear. But nobody important seems to be catching on.
> Particularly not among the Socialists.
>
> Regards.
>
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:31:58 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
> "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
> The system, being increasingly non- self-liquidating causes
> the financial world to resort to a proliferating series of
> evermore tenuous artifices in an attempt to make an
> unworkable system function. When the debt load becomes
> stretched to the limit of any hope of debts being serviced
> confidence breaks and the whole thing comes down like a deck
> of cards, making nonsense of all previous denials that the
> financial system is unsound. Then the government, if
> wholesale ruination is to be avoided, is more or less=2
> 0compelled to intervene with injection of more of the same
> debt poison which caused the collapse in the first place.
> They just borrow more money from the banking system and
> carry on by further inflation of the money supply with it
> concomitant upward pressure on the price-level, the inherent
> deficiency of purchasing-power being set off further into
> the future by transforming the debt of the private sector
> into permanent state debt. Of course we are all expected
> to work harder and longer to meet the burden of inflating
> prices and increased taxation resulting from interest
> charges on bloating state debt. Of course, attempts by the
> state to reverse this situation by endeavoring to run on
> balanced budgets and to pay down state debt just constricts
> the economy while leaving the community of lesser
> governments and individuals to shoulder the burden of the
> false debts that are increasing exponentially. We now
> witness the futility and tragedy of this unrealistic policy
> in the recent so-called credit "meltdown" and the
> inevitable contraction of the economy which must come from
> the deflation. But it serves those who confiscate the
> wealth of others and those who would enhance the power of
> the state by proposing increasing state intervention in the
> lives of the people--serving also the policy of forcing
> nations increasingly into mergers leading to an eventual
> global government..
>
> Sincerely
>
>
> Wally Klinck
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 24-Nov-08, at 12:23 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> That is correct
> here too. I guess worldwide it was decided to abasndon
> what our Monetary Commission referred to as a "blunt
> instrument" for controlling the money supply in favour
> of controlling the "willing borrower" aspect by
> varying the price, i.e. interest rates.
> But that doesn't alter the fact that the banking system
> needs reserves for interbank transactions, and in the
> present situation, to shore up payments for withdrawals of
> deposits. In effect, this is what the "bailout"
> is trying to do.
> Amazing how governments are required to keep out of
> banking, except when the banks need help!
> Regards.
>
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:03:21 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
> "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
> My understanding is that in Canada reserve ratio
> requirements were discontinued some time ago for banks
> operating under Federal Charter--and that only certain
> capital requirements remain.
>
> Wally
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 23-Nov-08, at 6:42 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry. It is standard for banking anywhere. They can not
> lend their liabilities. That applies to savings banks too,
> but it seems most of them draw on commercial banks to back
> them.
> Money supply M1 (or M2 or higher) includes, as its major
> component "demand deposits with the financial
> institutions". That is where the money paid into a bank
> goes. The only ways banks could lend "money paid in to
> them" would be if the deposits were reduced when this
> happen
> ed (they are not) or if by some way the money magically
> doubled as it was paid in to the bank. That is not the point
> at which it is considered to be multiplied.
> Every new bank loan results in a creation of that amount of
> new money 'out of nothing'.
> But, of course, banks need reserves to guard their
> deposits. And also, under fractional reserve banking, any
> bank that suffers complete loss of confidence by the public
> must go broke. That is where the relevance of the
> reserve/deposit ratio comes in.
> Regards. John R
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: telergy@bigpond.com
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:19:07 +1100
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
> "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
>
>
> Well John R
>
>
>
>
>
> it differs in different Nation States. In the US, I think
> Clinton removed the seperation of lending banks and
> investment banks,so that they can do both.
>
>
> Australia's bank regulators kept ratios to about 10%,
> quite healthy compared to US and Europe.
>
>
> George Jr and Greenspan don't believe in regulation.
>
>
> The best overview I get is from following speeches at BIS
> (Bank of International Settlements) where central bankers
> they openly talkabout increasing liquidity by lowering the
> ratios for their banks.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.bis.org/list/cbspeeches/page_6.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> My easy english version goes
>
>
> "Imagine a money lender around AD 10. He has a bag of
> gold, and people want to borrow some. More people want a
> loan than the amount of gold he has. He realises20that, by
> issuing tokens, he can extend credit to all who want some,
> assuming that the debtors are a good risk, and will be
> paying it back on time."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> cheers
>
>
> Graeme Taylor
>
>
>
>
>
> ps Whatever has happened to all that gold in Fort Knox?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:36 AM
>
>
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
> "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
>
>
> It is also a totally wrong explanation, and a not uncommon
> error. 2% reserve ratio means $100 of loans for every ÂŁ2 of
> RESERVES. Since loans create deposits, that ratio could
> never be attained under any circumstances where deposits are
> concerned. The writer forgot that bank deposits are their
> liabilities, and can never be lent.
> Regards.
>
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:08:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
> "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
> This not really an alternate explanation. It is simply
> the false explanation which has been promulgated from
> establishment sources. We are well aware that every
> imaginable artifice involving the extension of debt has been
> devised to make the economy function under a fundamentally
> and fatally defective and unworkable financial system.
> What do you mean by saying that you are "pretty well
> over the soc red concept"? Do you mean that you
> possess a good understanding of it?--or that you hold little
> or no hope20of it being an effective solution to financial
> and economic problems of the industrialized world? Social
> Crediters intend to make it relevant and we cannot afford to
> heed defeatist opinions. We are currently provided with an
> almost unprecedented opportunity to advance our cause and we
> must press on with increasing intensity. So--down with
> hesitation and doubt and on with the job! I would not hold
> out much hope from Barak Obama's term of office.
> Already he has declared his intent to provide
> "jobs" for the population--hardly a Social Credit
> policy.
>
>
>
>
>
> Wally
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 21-Nov-08, at 8:47 PM, Graeme Taylor wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Herewith an alternate explanation
>
>
>
>
>
> Because Green spam believed in the market and
> self-correction of itself, he saw no need to regulate the
> lending (reserve) ratios of the banks. Thus, it went below
> 2%.
>
>
> That is, for every two dollars deposit, a hundred in loans.
>
>
>
>
>
> Europe's banks, attempting to maintain market share,
> dropped their ratios down to 4 or 5%. Easy money for
> borrowing, and a race to the bottom.
>
>
>
>
>
> The CHinese Banks, in August began by dropping their ratio
> for their Rural Bank to below 17% so as to increase
> liquidity in the hope that rual incomes could start to catch
> up to urban ones.
>
>
> Now, I guess, they have dropped their Infrastructure
> Bank's ratios as an economic stimulus package.
>
>
>
>
>
> Gordon Brown thought the best thing to do is to invest in
> the banks. Yep
> . More money in the coffers helps raise the lending ratios
> of their banks.
>
>
>
>
>
> With a 2% ratio, (fractional reserve money backed by
> virtually nothing), only a small proportion of debtors going
> bankrupt sends the bank belly up.
>
>
>
>
>
> I do hope that Barack gets better advice than George Jr
> got.
>
>
>
>
>
> I'm pretty over the soc cred concept. Seriously, with
> up to 20% of the economy being illicit (drugs, extortion),
> no perfect formula is gonna work, same as with people going
> bankrupt.
>
>
>
>
>
> cheers
>
>
> Graeme Taylor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: Wallace Klinck
>
>
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
>
>
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:12 PM
>
>
> Subject: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis"
> and "Depression"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This message has been sent to all Members of the Canadian
> House of Commons:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am forwarding a document outlining the basic and
> underlying, as opposed to superficial, causes of the
> current disastrous and ruinous credit "crisis" and
> the primary essential remedial measures required to effect
> an honest and stable financial system with it corollary, a
> viable producing and consuming economic system. Also
> attached is a short PDF showing how the Keynesian equations
> can be modified to achieve these ends. (Not included in
> this posting.)
>
> Yours sincerely
> Wallace M. Klinck
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> FINANCE, DEBT AND DEPRESSION
>
>
>
>
> The so-called economic and financial "experts"
> are apparently tot
> ally oblivious to the fact that the financial price-system
> is fundamentally and increasingly non- self-liquidating.
> Consequently, they blame the credit "meltdown" and
> ensuing economic collapse on excessive extension of loans
> (debt) issued primarily without adequate regulatory
> legislation. The essential problem is that while the
> convention is that industry, in order to remain viable, must
> recover its financial costs in final prices, the existing
> financial system makes this a mathematical impossibility.
>
>
> Final price appears at the retail level. Consumers, being
> at the end of the economic process, are required through
> expenditure of their income, to liquidate all the financial
> costs of production. That is a perfectly reasonable and
> accepted accountancy convention. The crux of the liquidity
> failure is that, primarily due to the need for industry to
> add to retail prices certain increasing allocated charges in
> respect of capital, which do not constitute payment of
> income in the same cycle of production, consumers are
> increasingly short of income by which to meet the total
> retail prices necessarily charged by industry.
>
>
> Obviously, if nothing intervened the economy would shut
> down. Of course, what happens is that the consumer is
> evermore under necessity of borrowing (contracting debt
> obligations) from the banking system, that creates out of
> nothing the money that it lends as a repayable debt.
> Eventually the debt overload so erodes the liquidity of the
> financial system and the ability of consumers to contract
> and service debt that consumers can=2
> 0no longer keep borrowing and/or lenders cease to provide
> loans (in preparation for a "clean out" by
> foreclosure upon the assets of the people who have laboured
> to produce and acquire real wealth).
>
>
> There is nothing new about this confiscatory process. It
> has been characteristic of the credit system for hundreds of
> years—going back before creation of the Bank of England
> in 1694. It can only be a deliberate policy on the part of
> the few who are insiders "in the know" to
> confiscate property and centralize both ownership of
> property and political power.
>
>
> If the "experts" advice were followed and lending
> was simply restricted, this would just slow down the
> development of economic activity in spite of the national
> real capacity to conduct and expand that activity. This
> would intensify the problem of providing "jobs"
> with which they seem to be so strangely concerned—showing
> again a complete confusion of mind about the purpose of
> production—which purpose is not to provide work for
> humanity but to provide desired goods and services with
> maximum efficiency—which process involves minimization of
> all costs, including that of labour. The purpose of
> production is consumption—not the creation of work.
>
>
> The unfathomable fact is that so-called orthodox
> "economists" and public policy makers think first
> of financial factors and last of real, physical factors—
> and mindlessly accept the financial system as a determinant
> of physical activity. Money is simply a unit of account and
> should merely=2
> 0reflect, and never control, our physical activity. The
> whole thing, being a complete departure from reality, is
> quite psychotic.
>
>
> We are told by our “expert” advisers that we are being
> cast into an economic recession or slow down in actual
> physical production. Have we suddenly lost our energy
> resources (our gas, petroleum and electrical power), our
> mines and minerals, our information and transportation
> services, our forests, our cultural heritage of know-how and
> production expertise, etc.? Have our citizens suddenly
> decided to sit down on their posteriors and not do anything
> any more—has everyone suddenly become divested of
> motivation, intelligence and capability? Our course not. On
> a physical level everything remains essentially unchanged
> with an already astonishing technological efficiency and
> productivity only increasing exponentially over time. Yet,
> we are informed by the “experts” that we are slipping
> inevitably into a recession involving the slow down of real
> production. Anybody who believes this to be unavoidable, as
> though some consequence natural law, and is so perverse as
> to continue to believe it in the face of actual facts,
> probably fully deserves the consequences of their stupidity.
>
>
> As, William Aberhart, Social Credit Premier of the Province
> of Alberta said years ago, "If the people haven't
> suffered enough, it is their God-given right to suffer some
> more." I think people are guilt-ridden, because of
> sedulously inculcated false moral imperatives, such as the
> adulation of work for it
> s own sake. Consequently they are masochistic, and
> therefore welcome misery as a penance and cathartic for
> their induced artificial and misguided feelings of guilt.
> The whole thing is quite mad.
>
>
> The physical cost of production is fully met when goods
> arrive completed at retail. There is no need whatsoever for
> consumer debt. What is required before all else is a
> secondary flow of consumer credits injected extraneously
> into the price-system without debt as Consumer Dividends and
> to effect Compensated (lowered) Retail Prices at point of
> sale in order to permit consumers full, immediate and
> dynamic access to all retail goods—and to balance the
> price-system, so allowing business to recover its financial
> costs so that it can continue to serve the community if
> consumers so desire.
>
>
> As C. H. Douglas, founder of the Social Credit movement who
> offered the only realistic alternative to currently accepted
> and destructive Keynesian debt finance, said, "society
> is hypnotized and only a drastic dehypnotization can save
> it." How much abuse does it take to arouse a placid and
> somnolent public?
>
>
> Wallace M.
> Klinck wmklinck@shaw.ca C2 November
> 21, 2008
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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