| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" | | Date: | Saturday, November 29, 2008 21:18:23 (-0800) | | From: | Joe Thomson <thomsonhiyu @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5730 (written by Martin Hattersley) |
Thanks, Martin. One question. If the Treasury were going to create money
'debt-free', would it not be better to apply that new money to a reduction
of existing goods prices "at the time of purchase", rather than 'spending it
into circulation' for infrastructure and such like?
I really don't understand how the "accounting", if that latter course were
followed, could ever properly reflect reality. Infrastructure has "costs".
Real costs, because real goods and services are involved in creating it.
Yet those who propose going this route, no doubt sincere in their belief
that such a policy will cure the current defect in the 'price' system, never
seem to make clear just how these "costs" are to be dealt with.
Personally, from what little I understand of these matters at present, I
think we'd be simply substituting one badly flawed system for another if we
went that latter route. One which may very well have worse overall
ramifications than the present set-up when it come to the advancement of
'external' control over each of us as individuals.
That latter course seems to me like putting the cart before the horse.
Doubtless there is infrastructure that is needed, but it seems to me that
what's equally needed are policies which don't lead to the kind of rise in
consumer prices that having a massive increase in government spending, even
if its Treasury does create its own money, is sure to bring.
None of us, and particularly those on 'fixed incomes', are really ever
advantaged by having to pay "more" for the things we need and want. Yet I
can't see how this is to be avoided by following the "greenbacker"
conception as it's being promoted by many in our time.
Surely if we lower prices first, without merchants and manufacturers in this
country taking a hit, there will be an increase in economic activity. And
infrastructural spending then becomes more than just expedient 'make-work'
projects, complete with all the 'boondoggles' such things seem to constantly
attract.
For then citizens can decide for themselves whether or not any particular
project is worth contributing to solely for its own merits and benefits to
them. With lower prices we're making that desirable infrastructure more
affordable from the incomes which will end up paying for it anyways, one way
or another.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hattersley" <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
> Joe -
> Thought you might like an article I recently wrote on the current
"crisis",
> setting it out as an accounting problem. I think it's relevant.
>
> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442
> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Thomson" <thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca>
> To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 11:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I think many socialists, by their nature, are the type who want to be
"their
> brother's keeper". Whether the "brother" appreciates, or even wants,
their
> "keeping". Which he may well not. Especially if that "keeping" involves
> the restrictions on his "freedom" such "keepings" always seem to entail.
>
> I always thought Douglas's description of socialism was quite appropriate
~
> "monopoly state capitalism with control by finance". Also his observation
> that for all their desire to 're-distribute' wealth equally, we never seem
> to hear the socialist call for an equal re-distribution of the National
> Debt.
>
> For if the country is said to be that much the 'poorer' by owing it,
surely
> those to whom it is owed must be that much the 'richer' by the same
amount.
>
> But I think you're right. Though maybe a shade optimistic about the
number
> of Conservatives, (or anybody else), who understand how banking really
> works.
>
> I believe that is one of the major challenges we've got to overcome, along
> with vastly broadening an understanding of how 'double-entry' accounting
> really works. Both our own, and the public's, and those we elect to
office
> to represent us.
>
> There is a real need for a comprehensive, understandable, modern 'primer'
on
> both these subjects. And the relationship of one to the other.
>
> Textbooks I've seen on Accounting are good at showing 'how' to do it, in
> regards to the 'bookkeeping' involved. But sadly lacking on the history
of
> the subject, the 'why' many things are done as they are done, and are
> generally limited to just what the 'books' show in regards to one Firm.
>
> There's nothing that takes the subject beyond that, to the economy as a
> whole.
>
> An enormous amount of needless argument could be avoided if such a work
> could be produced. (I would say, in going back and reading many of Bill
> Ryan's posts, that he's already written a great deal of what such a work
> should include). Without something like that, we're going to continue to
> 'dance in the dark', and spend more time arguing amongst ourselves
> fruitlessly than in achieving any meaningful progress.
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John G Rawson
> To: Socred elistas
> Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 12:58 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
> Greetings Joe. I doubt if one Conservative in fifty understands how the
> banks work either. But yes, factional strife among monetary reformers
> helped the socialists to throw out the while thing.
> There are times when I wonder if Marx wasn't set up to draw attention
away
> from financial problems. The whole approach of writing this down as just a
> sideline to the big nasty employer-oppressors is quite weird.
> Of course, when discussing socialism it is important to define what it
is:
> state ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange.
Many
> people project it as just having a conscience and care for people. Most
> "socialist" parties these days would have been considered only slightly
> liberal in a past generation; ours in the '80's was hard neo-conservative.
> Regards.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 20:42:20 -0800
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I believe Social Credit once had considerable support amongst members
of
> the British Labour Party, (in the years right after World War One). I
think
> it's quite clear now that the 'bright lights' of that Party never really
> understood it, though, and probably wouldn't have agreed with it if they
> had.
>
> I wouldn't doubt the same could be said for the NZ "Socreds" who backed
> your first Labour government, and substituted 'deficit financing' for
> Douglas's "Proposals" to try to get you out of the Slump.
>
> Douglas and Orage tried to get British Labour Party support for their
> "Plan for the Coal-mining Industry", which would have been a 'social
credit'
> alternative to the 'socialism' those then prominent as leaders in that
> Party wanted. One of them, Sidney Webb, questioned Douglas quite
> thoroughly on all the details of his "Plan", and could find no fault in it
> on any technical grounds. But still rejected it because he didn't like
its
> "object".
>
> That "object" was the antithesis of the Fabian socialism Webb, and
others
> like him, really wanted. It would have led to a genuine 'economic
> democracy'. Rather than simply changing the control of policy to a
> different group of administrators.
>
> Ones who, like all 'socialists' I've known, (most of whom I've found are
> actually quite decent people ), are sure they know better than you do
> what's best for you. And are determined to impose all the wonders the
> 'socialist' State can provide on you, whether YOU want them or not. (And
> even if you don't, you still HAVE to pay for them ~ one way or another!)
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John G Rawson
> To: Socred elistas
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:26 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
> I tnink you mnay have that wrong, Joe. I think the truth might be
that,
> like here, the Labour Party was interested in it but the socialist faction
> forced it out.
> Labour here was originally unionist and backed by small farmers, even
> small businessmen. It's socialist faction was relatively small, and part
> communist, with strife between the two arms. I have been told there were
14
> monetary reformers (not all SC, some followed Soddy or possibly others) in
> the first Labour caucus of about 54. They and also the communists got
wedged
> out by the hard-core socialists.
> Itis one of the fallacies of edited history that all workers' parties
> were always Marxian.
> Regards.
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:24:42 -0800
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
> It was once ''well received'' in the 'socialist' British Labour Party,
> too. Until they realized its "object" was something which did not quite
> mesh with the kind of socialism envisioned by many of that group's
'guiding
> lights'.
>
> Joe
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: adavans@aol.com
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>
>
> Funny you should mention socialists. I'm not exactly a socialist,
but
> I am a member of SDUSA/Socialist Party of America. (if there were a
proper
> Christian Democratic party around I'd camp there!) We operate mostly
within
> the Democratic Party and are open to working with Republicans as well. The
> few times I have brought up social credit in our national committee
meetings
> it has been well received.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John G Rawson <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> To: Socred elistas <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:51 am
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>
>
> Thanks, Wally. It's all becoming so transparently clear. But nobody
> important seems to be catching on. Particularly not among the Socialists.
> Regards.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:31:58 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>
> The system, being increasingly non- self-liquidating=2 0causes the
> financial world to resort to a proliferating series of evermore tenuous
> artifices in an attempt to make an unworkable system function. When the
> debt load becomes stretched to the limit of any hope of debts being
serviced
> confidence breaks and the whole thing comes down like a deck of cards,
> making nonsense of all previous denials that the financial system is
> unsound. Then the government, if wholesale ruination is to be avoided, is
> more or less compelled to intervene with injection of more of the same
debt
> poison which caused the collapse in the first place. They just borrow
more
> money from the banking system and carry on by further inflation of the
money
> supply with it concomitant upward pressure on the price-level, the
inherent
> deficiency of purchasing-power being set off further into the future by
> transforming the debt of the private sector into permanent state debt. Of
> course we are all expected to work harder and longer to meet the burden of
> inflating prices and increased taxation resulting from interest charges on
> bloating state debt. Of course, attempts by the state to reverse this
> situation by endeavoring to run on balanced budgets and to pay down state
> debt just constricts the economy while leaving the community of lesser
> governments and individuals to shoulder the burden of the false debts that
> are increasing exponentially. We now witness the futility and tragedy of
> this unrealistic policy in the recent so-called credit "meltdown" and the
> inevitable contraction of the=2 0economy which must come from the
deflation.
> But it serves those who confiscate the wealth of others and those who
would
> enhance the power of the state by proposing increasing state intervention
in
> the lives of the people--serving also the policy of forcing nations
> increasingly into mergers leading to an eventual global government..
> Sincerely
> Wally Klinck
>
>
>
>
> On 24-Nov-08, at 12:23 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>
>
> That is correct here too. I guess worldwide it was decided to
> abasndon what our Monetary Commission referred to as a "blunt instrument"
> for controlling the money supply in favour of controlling the "willing
> borrower" aspect by varying the price, i.e. interest rates.
> But that doesn't alter the fact that the banking system needs
> reserves for interbank transactions, and in the present situation, to
shore
> up payments for withdrawals of deposits. In effect, this is what the
> "bailout" is trying to do.
> Amazing how governments are required to keep out of banking,
except
> when the banks need h elp!
> Regards.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:03:21 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
> My understanding is that in Canada reserve ratio requirements were
> discontinued some time ago for banks operating under Federal Charter--and
> that only certain capital requirements remain.
> Wally
>
>
>
>
> On 23-Nov-08, at 6:42 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sorry. It is standard for banking anywhere. They can not lend
> their liabilities. That applies to savings banks too, but it seems most of
> them draw on commercial banks to back them.
> Money supply M1 (or M2 or higher) includes, as its major
component
> "demand deposits with the financial institutions". That is where the
> money20paid into a bank goes. The only ways banks could lend "money paid
in
> to them" would be if the deposits were reduced when this happened (they
are
> not) or if by some way the money magically doubled as it was paid in to
the
> bank. That is not the point at which it is considered to be multiplied.
> Every new bank loan results in a creation of that amount of new
> money 'out of nothing'.
> But, of course, banks need reserves to guard their deposits. And
> also, under fractional reserve banking, any bank that suffers complete
loss
> of confidence by the public must go broke. That is where the relevance of
> the reserve/deposit ratio comes in.
> Regards. John R
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: telergy@bigpond.com
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:19:07 +1100
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
>
>
> Well John R
>
> it differs in different Nation States. In the US, I think
Clinton
> removed the seperation of lending banks and investment banks,so that they
> can do both.
> Australia's bank regulators kept ratios to about 10%, quite
> healthy compared to US and Europe.
> George Jr and Greenspan don't believe in regulation.
> The best overview I get is from following speeches at BIS (Bank
> of International Settlements) where central bankers they openly talkabout
> increasing liquidity by lowering the ratios for their banks.
>
> http://www.bis.org/list/cbspeeches/page_6.htm
>
> My easy english version goes
> "Imagine a money lender around AD 10. He has a bag of gold, and
> people want to borrow some. More people want a loan than the amount of
gold
> he has. He realises that, by issuing tokens, he can extend credit to all
who
> want some, assuming that the debtors are a good risk, and will be paying
it
> back on time."
>
>
> cheers
> Graeme Taylor
>
> ps Whatever has happened to all that gold in Fort Knox?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:36 AM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
>
> It is also a totally wrong explanation, and a not uncommon
> error. 2% reserve ratio means $100 of loans for every £2 of RESERVES.
Since
> loans create deposits, that ratio could never be attained under any
> circumstances where deposits are concerned. The writer forgot that bank
> deposits are their liabilities, and can never be lent.
> Regards.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:08:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
> This not really an alternate explanation. It is simply the
> false explanation which has been promulgated from establishment sources.
We
> are well aware that every imaginable artifice involving the extension of
> debt has been devised to make the economy function under a fundamentally
and
> fatally defective and unworkable financial system. What do you mean by
> saying that you are "pretty well over the soc red concept"? Do you mean
> that you possess a good understanding of it?--or that you hold little or
no
> hope of it being an effective solution to financial and economic problems
of
> the industrialized world? Social Crediters intend to make it relevant and
> we cannot afford to heed defeatist opinions. We are currently provided
with
> an almost unprecedented opportunity to advance our cause and we must press
> on with increasing intensity. So--down with hesitation and doubt and on
> with the job! I would not hold out much hope from Barak Obama's term of
> office. Already he has declared his intent to provide "jobs" for the
> population--hardly a Social Credit policy.
>
>
> Wally
>
>
>
>
>
> On 21-Nov-08, at 8:47 PM, Graeme Taylor wrote:
>
>
> Herewith an alternate explanation
>
> Because Green spam believed in the market and
self-correction
> of itself, he saw no need to regulate the lending (reserve) ratios of the
> banks. Thus, it went below 2%.
> That is, for every two dollars deposit, a hundred in loans.
>
> Europe's banks, attempting to maintain market share,
dropped
> their ratios down to 4 or 5%. Easy money for borrowing, and a race to the
> bottom.
>
> The CHinese Banks, in August began by dropping their ratio
for
> their Rural Bank to below 17% so as to increase liquidity in the hope that
> rual incomes could start to catch up to urban ones.
> Now, I guess, they have dropped their Infrastructure Bank's
> ratios as an economic stimulus package.
>
> Gordon Brown thought the best thing to do is to invest in
the
> banks. Yep. More money in the coffers helps raise the lending ratios of
> their banks.
>
> With a 2% ratio, (fractional reserve money backed by
virtually
> nothing), only a small proportion of debtors going bankrupt sends the bank
> belly up.
>
> I do hope that Barack gets better advice than George Jr got.
>
> I'm pretty over the soc cred concept. Seriously, with up to
> 20% of the economy being illicit (drugs, extortion), no perfect formula is
> gonna work, same as with people going bankrupt.
>
> cheers
> Graeme Taylor
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wallace Klinck
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:12 PM
> Subject: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
>
> This message has been sent to all Members of the Canadian
> House of Commons:
>
>
>
>
> I am forwarding a document outlining the basic and
> underlying, as opposed to superficial, causes of the current disastrous
and
> ruinous credit "crisis" and the primary essential remedial measures
required
> to effect an honest and stable financial system with it corollary, a
viable
> producing and consuming economic system. Also attached is a short PDF
> showing how the Keynesian equations can be modified to achieve these ends.
> (Not included in this posting.)
>
> Yours sincerely
> Wallace M. Klinck
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> FINANCE, DEBT AND DEPRESSION
> The so-called economic and financial "experts" are
> apparently totally oblivious to the fact that the financial price-system
is
> fundamentally and increasingly non- self-liquidating. Consequently, they
> blame the credit "meltdown" and ensuing economic collapse on excessive
> extension of loans (debt) issued primarily without adequate regulatory
> legislation. The essential problem is that while the convention is that
> industry, in order to remain viable, must recover its financial costs in
> final prices, the existing financial system makes this a mathematical
> impossibility.
> Final price appears at the retail level. Consumers, being
at
> the end of the economic process, are required through expenditure of their
> income, to liquidate all the financial costs of production. That is a
> perfectly reasonable and accepted accountancy convention. The crux of the
> liquidity failure is that, primarily due to the need for industry to add
to
> ret ail prices certain increasing allocated charges in respect of capital,
> which do not constitute payment of income in the same cycle of production,
> consumers are increasingly short of income by which to meet the total
retail
> prices necessarily charged by industry.
> Obviously, if nothing intervened the economy would shut
> down. Of course, what happens is that the consumer is evermore under
> necessity of borrowing (contracting debt obligations) from the banking
> system, that creates out of nothing the money that it lends as a repayable
> debt. Eventually the debt overload so erodes the liquidity of the
financial
> system and the ability of consumers to contract and service debt that
> consumers can no longer keep borrowing and/or lenders cease to provide
loans
> (in preparation for a "clean out" by foreclosure upon the assets of the
> people who have laboured to produce and acquire real wealth).
> There is nothing new about this confiscatory process. It
has
> been characteristic of the credit system for hundreds of years—going back
> before creation of the Bank of England in 1694. It can only be a
deliberate
> policy on the part of the few who are insiders "in the kno w" to
confiscate
> property and centralize both ownership of property and political power.
> If the "experts" advice were followed and lending was
simply
> restricted, this would just slow down the development of economic activity
> in spite of the national real capacity to conduct and expand that
activity.
> This would intensify the problem of providing "jobs" with which they seem
to
> be so strangely concerned—showing again a complete confusion of mind about
> the purpose of production—which purpose is not to provide work for
humanity
> but to provide desired goods and services with maximum efficiency—which
> process involves minimization of all costs, including that of labour. The
> purpose of production is consumption—not the creation of work.
> The unfathomable fact is that so-called orthodox
> "economists" and public policy makers think first of financial factors and
> last of real, physical factors— and mindlessly accept the financial system
> as a determinant of physical activity. Money is simply a unit of account
and
> should merely reflect, and never control, our physical activity. The
whole
> thing, being a complete departure from reality, is quite psychotic.
> We are told by our “expert” advisers that we are being
cast
> into an economic recession or slow down in actual physical production.
Have
> we suddenly lost our energy resources (our gas, petroleum and electrical
> power), our mines and minerals, our information and transportation
services,
> our forests, our cultural heritage of know-how and production expertise,
> etc.? Have our citizens suddenly decided to sit down on their posteriors
and
> not do anything any more—has everyone suddenly become divested of
> motivation, intelligence and capability? Our course not. On a physical
level
> everything remains essentially unchanged with an already astonishing
> technological efficiency and productivity only increasing exponentially
over
> time. Yet, we are informed by the “experts” that we are slipping
inevitably
> into a recession involving the slow down of real production. Anybody who
> believes this to be unavoidable, as though some consequence natural law,
and
> is so perverse as to continue to believe it in the face of actual facts,
> probably fully deserves the consequences of their stupidity.
> As, William Aberhart, Social Credit Premier of the
Province
> of Alberta said years ago, "If the people haven't suffered enough, it
> is20their God-given right to suffer some more." I think people are
> guilt-ridden, because of sedulously inculcated false moral imperatives,
such
> as the adulation of work for it’s own sake. Consequently they are
> masochistic, and therefore welcome misery as a penance and cathartic for
> their induced artificial and misguided feelings of guilt. The whole thing
is
> quite mad.
> The physical cost of production is fully met when goods
> arrive completed at retail. There is no need whatsoever for consumer debt.
> What is required before all else is a secondary flow of consumer credits
> injected extraneously into the price-system without debt as Consumer
> Dividends and to effect Compensated (lowered) Retail Prices at point of
sale
> in order to permit consumers full, immediate and dynamic access to all
> retail goods—and to balance the price-system, so allowing business to
> recover its financial costs so that it can continue to serve the community
> if consumers so desire.
> As C. H. Douglas, founder of the Social Credit movement
who
> offered the only realistic alternative to currently accepted and
destructive
> Keynesian debt finance, said, "society is hypnotized and only a drastic
> dehypnotization can save it." How much abuse does it take t o arouse a
> placid and somnolent public?
> Wallace M. Klinck
> wmklinck@shaw.ca
> November 21, 2008
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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