| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" | | Date: | Monday, December 1, 2008 21:58:49 (-0700) | | From: | Martin Hattersley <jmartinh @....ca>
|
| In reply to: | Message 5745 (written by John G Rawson) |
Hi, John -
"Just Price" is, I believe, a term that Douglas borrowed from Thomas
Aquinas, who considered that the price of goods sold should bear a
relationship to the cost of producing them. I'd have to do a bit of research
to say more, but I don't think that Douglas adoption of the term was
particularly felicitoous, and it obviously leads to misunderstanding.
My father explained it in limerick form as follows:
Says Science, "Come take my advice
Don't pay for your benefits twice.
Pay only the cost
Of the goods that are lost
In the making them. That's the Just Price."
The point is, that if the community has already paid through inflation for
the construction of capital assets financed by bank credit, it is unfair for
the community also to have to be charged for the element of depreciation
that is charged into the price of the products of those assets when they
come on the market. That's "paying for your benefits twice".
The calculation of the amount of the "Retail Price Discount" would be on a
macroeconomic basis - the amount of capital depreciation less the amount of
capital appreciation, giving a figure of how much credit would need to be
injected into the economy to balance costs incurred in production (including
investment in new plant where goods are not yet being produced) with funds
in the hands of consumers available to be spent on consumption.
And I'd be the first to admit that a good deal of statistical work still has
to be done to make this credible and workable. I suspect that in his early
writings Douglas gave figures that would only be justifiable in a state of
extreme depression.
Cheers -
Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442
e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 7:19 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
Thanks Martin. That's the same answer I usually get.
But I want someone to show me how competition would work in a sellers'
market.
We have seen all sorts of booms and bubbles on the rare occasions when
people get enough money to buy houses etc. And have a look at prices in
tourist destinations. Usually plenty of competition there too, but the
prices are always higher than down the road a bit. Why should goods be
different? And also, why use of the term "just price", if nobody is going to
determine what just prices are? There has to be some reasoning behind that
term that is relevant, but when I enquire I get a definition of justness of
price(s), not any mechanism to achieve it.
I'm really scared of this one, and always have been, because I would be
unable to defend it against someone making the sort of objections I am
raising now. And often we have to be caught out on one point only and people
then think the whole fabric is rubbish.Regards.
John R.> From: jmartinh@shaw.ca> To: socialcredit@elistas.com> Date: Mon, 1
Dec 2008 15:18:21 -0700> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
"Crisis" and "Depression"> > I have always regarded the "Just Price" concept
as being a percentage > discount from the price that would otherwise be
charged to the consumer, as > businesses often do today. the difference
being that the discount would be > paid by new credit issued from a National
Credit Office, in accordance with > the needs of the economy, in order to
balance financial demand for products > with available supply. It would be
calculated on a macroeconomic basis, and > would not have to contain any
element of price control of individual > products.> > I see no difficulty in
adapting existing sales tax mechanisms to reverse > themselves and pay such
a discount - certainly likely to be a very popular > move.> > The normal
processes of competition should serve to prevent profiteering by > any
particular business.> > Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,> EDMONTON AB CANADA
T6M 2J1> Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>> > -----
Original Message ----- > From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>>
To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit@elistas.com>> Sent: Monday, December 01,
2008 12:46 PM> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"> > > > This discussion is purely with the mechanism of paying
it, for which I see > no problems and several solutions, but:Martin uses the
term "just price" > which implies conmditions for its payment, i.e. a means
of containing price > inflation. How do we establish "just prices" for a
multitude's multitude of > items, each in different parts of a country each
with different transport > costs, local taxes, etc?> Others insist that it
shall be a discount of a certain percentage of the > price, whatever it is.
Which, to me, in the sellers market that SC would > establish, would lay the
situation completely open to profiteering.> A bureaucratic nightmare to beat
all socialist efforts anywhere, or > uncontrolled inflation?> If someone can
answer these points, I too will faour the system. But I've > been asking for
these answers for decades now.> John R.> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008
07:07:10 -0800> From: > william_b_ryan@yahoo.com> To:
socialcredit@elistas.com> Subject: Re: > [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
"Crisis" and "Depression"> > It would be > equivalent to a "Goods and
Services Tax" in reverse, but I would be > reluctant to accept a commingling
of the tax and dividend systems. Too much > of an incentive to increase the
tax rate to offset the dividend due the > people.> > At the very least money
created by the Mint would need the > cooperation of the banks. During and
after the Civil War, the banks refused > to accept deposits of Greenbacks,
which greatly limited their acceptability. > The banks achieved complete
victory with the passage of the Specie > Resumption Act, which mandated that
the Greenbacks be redeemed by the > government in gold. This greatly
enriched the speculators who had amassed > Greenbacks at steep discount.> >
Legal tender status is not sufficient to > guarantee acceptability. The
Greenbacks had legal tender status that was > eventually approved by the
Supreme Court. Legal tender status did not > require the banks to accept
them for deposit. It only required that > creditors accept them in payment
for debt. But Alberta didn't even have the > legal authority to convey legal
tender status to its notes.> > All money is > debt by its creator to its
bearer. That will always be the case. It is a > subset of the more general
concept of contract for future performance, which > fits very well with
Douglas' "ticket" metaphor. See the Innes papers at > >
http://www.geocities.com/new_economics/innes/>; > > > > --- On Sun, 11/30/08,
> Martin Hattersley <jmartinh@shaw.ca> wrote:> > Yes, I'm certainly in
favour > of a "Just Price", which in Canada could easily be achieved through
making > our "Goods and Services Tax" mechanism go into reverse as a subsidy
on > prices, so introducing money into the economy in a way that actually >
reverses inflation, that money being created by the Mint rather than the >
banking system. > > The one essential thing we have to do is to create our >
money supply without creating debt at the same time, and there's certainly >
no sense in spending money on infrastructure (or wars) if what we get from >
it all isn't anything we need. > > Martin Hattersley> > > >
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