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(John Rawson wrote:-) However, there would be
nothing to stop customers accepting higher prices because "their govt." is going
to refund part.
(Joe replies:-) Customers, as individuals, can
"accept" or "reject" whatever they want. But if, through the
CPD, they still get the product cheaper than they did before, how can that
possibly be 'inflationary'?
And ask yourself this, if the individual business
supplying some product does greatly become more profitable,
and it doesn't have any competition, how long before it gets
some?
Just look at all the things people try to supply the
public in competition with one another now. Trying to make, or
peddle, things that couldn't be any more than marginally profitable, at
best. (One of the reasons so many new businesses fail within the
first three years of opening.)
(John continues:-) I don't know how to start until
someone tells me just how competition would overcome the problem in
a sellers market. Or is SC going to put just slightly less than
equated purch. power into circulation to preserve a buyers market? I
have never seen that postulated.
(Joe replies:-) An across-the-board "sellers'
market" must mean that the public already has enough money in its hands,
overall, to fully meet prices asked for the goods it wants to consume.
Otherwise, how could you have a "sellers' market" ? In such a
scenario you do not need a "discount". But lets look at what induced that
scenario.
Likely nowadays, the public's got that
money either through increases in consumer credit advanced for things like new
home mortgages. Or from the excess of production of 'capital
goods', or other goods that don't come with the normal buying range of the
public ~ "exports", "armaments", "infrastructure", etc. ~ over
'consumer goods'.
As regards that latter, we'd have to ask ourselves whether
the production of these things are necessary or desirable in their own right, or
whether we're just engaging in another "guns before butter" exercise to
provide an excuse for "employment", and the illusion of prosperity such a
"sellers' market" ususally creates.
If the production of 'consumer goods' is made to exceed
that of 'capital goods', which it properly should with an implementation of
Social Credit, since there is then always an "effective demand" for those
goods (through the macro-economic accounting adjustments of the ND and CPD)
WITHOUT having to produce MORE 'CAPITAL GOODS', we are then able to produce
consumer goods to the full limit of actual capacity, or the satiation of actual
consumer demand, whichever comes first. And we eliminate the "boom and
bust" cycles of "sellers' " and "buyers' " markets.
The "price" to the consumer, of all consumer goods, is
thereby adjusted to reflect the true "costs of production"~ which, to him, is
the "Just Price". The only one, in reality, he CAN pay.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 12:28
PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance:
Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
I hadn't thought of that mechanism. Everyone (in Douglas
day) collecting a paper chase of invoices and taking them to their bank
periodically. I can visualise divorces when wife forgets to keep
invoices!
Probably easier now if everyone uses credit cards.
However,
there would be nothing to stop customers accepting higher prices because "ther
govt." is going to refund part.
We have reached an impasse. I aver that it
could allow inflation of prices, and I give reasons. Others aver it would not,
through competition, without giving reasons.
We need to go further into the
matter, but I don't know how to start until someone tells me just how
competition would overcome the problem in a sellers market. Or is SC
going to put just slightly less than equated purch. power into
circulation to preserve a buyers market? I have never seen that
postulated.
Regards.
John R.
> Date:
Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:55:22 -0800
> From: william_b_ryan@yahoo.com
>
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance:
Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
> "Others insist that it shall
be a discount of a certain percentage of the price, whatever it is. Which, to
me, in the sellers market that SC would establish, would lay the situation
completely open to profiteering."
>
---------------------------------------------------------
>
--------------------------------------------------------
>
> A
fixed-percentage discount off the varying price is how Douglas proposed it.
Why and how could this lead to profiteering? Douglas proposed that it be paid
directly to consumers as a rebate on their sales invoices, lowering the
effective price of their purchases. Why do you think this would create a
"sellers' market"? One intended effect would be to increase the rate of
profit, thereby increasing the quantity and array of products and services
reaching the point of retail, inasmuch as more production would be profitable
than otherwise would be the case, which is hardly "profiteering." I don't
believe it is a particularly difficult concept to understand. And it would be
a very powerful tool to combat the current recession.
>
> I
believe that the Fed could legally send out checks right now, in dividends and
rebates directly to final consumers, without additional implementing
legislation. I believe they already have the legal authority to do so.
>
> Instead, it is creating hundreds of billions of dollars in new money
in its stimulus program to purchase various securities, and in various loan
programs, as Chairman Bernanke said in his speech in Austin earlier today. It
is the extension of the "trickle down from Wall Street" program they have
always followed, in their "pushing on a string" effort to respond to changing
circumstances. I've appended the AP report of that speech below:
>
---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
F-A-I-R U-S-E C-L-A-I-M-E-D
>
> December 1, 2008
>
Bernanke: lower interest rates are "feasible"
> By JEANNINE AVERSA, AP
Economics Writer Jeannine Aversa, Ap Economics Writer
>
>
WASHINGTON – Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said Monday that further
interest-rate cuts are "certainly feasible," but he warned there are limits to
how much such action would revive an economy likely to stay weak well into
next year.
>
> The Fed's key interest rate now stands at 1
percent, a level seen only once before in the last half-century. To help lift
the country out of a recession that started in December of last year, many
economists predict Bernanke and his colleagues will drop the rate again at
their next meeting on Dec. 15-16.
>
> Bernanke spoke just hours
after the National Bureau of Economic Research announced that the U.S. economy
has been in a recession since December 2007.
>
> He didn't
mention the NBER's finding in his speech to business leaders in Austin, Texas,
nor in answering questions afterward. However, Bernanke warned that the
economy likely will remain stuck in a slump.
>
> "Even if the
functioning of financial markets continues to improve, economic conditions
will probably remain weak for a time," he said.
>
> In his
speech, Bernanke noted that the bracing impact of the Fed's aggressive rate
reductions has been somewhat stymied by the worst credit and financial crises
to hit the world economy since the 1930s. Despite lower borrowing costs
ordered by the Fed, skittish banks have been reluctant to lend money to people
and businesses, a vicious cycle that has seriously hobbled the U.S.
economy.
>
> "Although further reductions ... are certainly
feasible, at this point the scope for using conventional interest rate
policies to support the economy is obviously limited," Bernanke said in the
speech. The Fed can lower its key rate only so far — to zero — and it's
getting ever closer to that threshold.
>
> Bernanke said there
are other ways that the Fed might bolster economic activity.
>
>
The Fed, for instance, could buy longer-term Treasury or agency securities on
the open market in substantial quantities, he said. This might lower rates on
these securities, "thus helping to spur aggregate demand," Bernanke
said.
>
> Given the limits to how low the Fed can go in reducing
interest rates, the central bank over the past year has resorted to a flurry
of other radical — and often unprecedented actions — with the hope of busting
through credit jams and getting financial markets operating more
normally.
>
> It has ramped up cash and other types of loans to
financial institutions, started buying mounds of short-term debt that
companies rely on for day-to-day operations like paying salaries and buying
supplies, and expanded its emergency lending program to investment
firms.
>
> Just last week the Fed announced two new programs
aimed at increasing the availability and lowering the costs of credit card
loans, auto loans, student loans and home mortgages.
>
> The Fed
last week said it would purchase $200 billion in securities backed by
different types of consumer debt. That market essentially froze in October,
making such loans harder to obtain while carrying higher interest
rates.
>
> The Fed also said it would spend $500 billion to
purchase mortgage-backed securities guaranteed by mortgage giants Fannie Mae
and Freddie Mac, and another $100 billion to directly purchase mortgages held
by Fannie, Freddie and the Federal Home Loan Banks.
>
> Bernanke
said the Fed will continue to look for innovative ways to break through the
credit logjams.
>
> "We at the Federal Reserve and our colleagues
at other federal agencies will carefully monitor the conditions of all key
financial institutions and stand ready to act as needed to preserve their
viability in this difficult financial environment," Bernanke said.
>
> The NBER — a private, nonprofit research organization — said its
group of academic economists who determine business cycles met on Friday and
decided that the country tipped into recession in December 2007. The economy
contracted in the final quarter of last year.
>
> The economy
jolted into reverse again in the summer. Many economists predict it is still
shrinking now and will continue to do so through the first quarter of next
year.
>
> Consumers — major shapers of national economic activity
— likely will keep cutting back on their spending, he said Consumers have been
reeling from job losses, hard-to-get credit and hits to their wealth from
sinking home values and tanking portfolio investments.
>
> In
October, the unemployment rate zoomed to 6.5 percent, a 14-year high. So far
this year, 1.2 million positions have disappeared. The jobless rate is likely
to climb to 8 percent or higher next year.
>
> A student of the
Great Depression, Bernanke said the current period of economic woe bears "no
comparison in terms of severity" to the 1930s.
>
> ____
>
> AP Business Writer John Porretto contributed to this report from
Austin.
>
>
> ----------------original
message------------------
>
> RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit
"Crisis" and "Depression"
> Monday, December 1, 2008 1:46 PM
>
From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> To: "Socred
elistas" <socialcredit@elistas.com>
>
> This discussion is
purely with the mechanism of paying it, for which I see no problems and
several solutions, but:
>
> Martin uses the term "just price"
which implies conditions for its payment, i.e. a means of containing price
inflation. How do we establish "just prices" for a multitude's multitude of
items, each in different parts of a country each with different transport
costs, local taxes, etc?
>
> Others insist that it shall be a
discount of a certain percentage of the price, whatever it is. Which, to me,
in the sellers market that SC would establish, would lay the situation
completely open to profiteering.
> A bureaucratic nightmare to beat all
socialist efforts anywhere, or uncontrolled inflation?
>
> If
someone can answer these points, I too will favour the system. But I've been
asking for these answers for decades now.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
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