No. We have never taken it up, presumably because most felt like I do.
But then, anyone who campaigned on the national Dividend, which is written into our Constitution, would be insane. You don't offer people "pie in the sky" until you have established a basis of, first, what is wrong with the present system and how it is hurting them, and then pointing out that we would make the obvious corrections.
We have two grave handicaps when campaigning: first that people simply will not accept that the common-sense ideas we put over haven't been done already because they are so obvious, and second that we have to promise far less than we really think we can do or it all sounds incredibly good.
Promoting policy gets nowhere unless you are a big party with an obvious chance to put it into effect. With the SC philosophy behind it, I believe we have the best general policy of any party in NZ. It's like insurance, you have to sell the need, not the product.
Further, of course, Kiwis like to be on the winning side. And they are spoiled because we get there often enough in sport. So if you are down, you tend to sink further.
Regards.
John R.
From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:12:48 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
Has anyone in New Zealand "Social Credit" political party circles ever campaigned for office promoting the concept of a Compensated Price Discount for consumers?
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
Thanks Martin. That's the same answer I usually get.
But I want someone to show me how competition would work in a sellers' market.
We have seen all sorts of booms and bubbles on the rare occasions when people get enough money to buy houses etc. And have a look at prices in tourist destinations. Usually plenty of competition there too, but the prices are always higher than down the road a bit. Why should goods be different? And also, why use of the term "just price", if nobody is going to determine what just prices are? There has to be some reasoning behind that term that is relevant, but when I enquire I get a definition of justness of price(s), not any mechanism to achieve it.
I'm really scared of this one, and always have been, because I would be unable to defend it against someone making the sort of objections I am raising now. And often we have to be caught out on one point only and people then think the whole fabric is rubbish.
Regards.
John R.
> From: jmartinh@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:18:21 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
> I have always regarded the "Just Price" concept as being a percentage
> discount from the price that would otherwise be charged to the consumer, as
> businesses often do today. the difference being that the discount would be
> paid by new credit issued from a National Credit Office, in accordance with
> the needs of the economy, in order to balance financial demand for products
> with available supply. It would be calculated on a macroeconomic basis, and
> would not have to contain any element of price control of individual
> products.
>
> I see no difficulty in adapting existing sales tax mechanisms to reverse
> themselves and pay such a discount - certainly likely to be a very popular
> move.
>
> The normal processes of competition should serve to prevent profiteering by
> any particular business.
>
> Martin Hattersley, 5929-189 St.,
> EDMONTON AB CANADA T6M 2J1
> Phone & Fax (780) 483-5442
> e-mail <jmartinh@shaw.ca>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G Rawson" <johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> To: "Socred elistas" <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2008 12:46 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
>
> This discussion is purely with the mechanism of paying it, for which I see
> no problems and several solutions, but:Martin uses the term "just price"
> which implies conmditions for its payment, i.e. a means of containing price
> inflation. How do we establish "just prices" for a multitude's multitude of
> items, each in different parts of a country each with different transport
> costs, local taxes, etc?
> Others insist that it shall be a discount of a certain percentage of the
> price, whatever it is. Which, to me, in the sellers market that SC would
> establish, would lay the situation completely open to profiteering.
> A bureaucratic nightmare to beat all socialist efforts anywhere, or
> uncontrolled inflation?
> If someone can answer these points, I too will faour the system. But I've
> been asking for these answers for decades now.
> John R.> Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:07:10 -0800> From:
> william_b_ryan@yahoo.com> To: socialcredit@elistas.com> Subject: Re:
> [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"> > It would be
> equivalent to a "Goods and Services Tax" in reverse, but I would be
> reluctant to accept a commingling of the tax and dividend systems. Too much
> of an incentive to increase the tax rate to offset the dividend due the
> people.> > At the very least money created by the Mint would need the
> cooperation of the banks. During and after the Civil War, the banks refused
> to accept deposits of Greenbacks, which greatly limited their acceptability.
> The banks achieved complete victory with the passage of the Specie
> Resumption Act, which mandated that the Greenbacks be redeemed by the
> government in gold. This greatly enriched the speculators who had amassed
> Greenbacks at steep discount.> > Legal tender status is not sufficient to
> guarantee acceptability. The Greenbacks had legal tender status that was
> eventually approved by the Supreme Court. Legal tender status did not
> require the banks to accept them for deposit. It only required that
> creditors accept them in payment for debt. But Alberta didn't even have the
> legal authority to convey legal tender status to its notes.> > All money is
> debt by its creator to its bearer. That will always be the case. It is a
> subset of the more general concept of contract for future performance, which
> fits very well with Douglas' "ticket" metaphor. See the Innes papers at >
> http://www.geocities.com/new_economics/innes/> > > > > --- On Sun, 11/30/08,
> Martin Hattersley <jmartinh@shaw.ca> wrote:> > Yes, I'm certainly in favour
> of a "Just Price", which in Canada could easily be achieved through making
> our "Goods and Services Tax" mechanism go into reverse as a subsidy on
> prices, so introducing money into the economy in a way that actually
> reverses inflation, that money being created by the Mint rather than the
> banking system. > > The one essential thing we have to do is to create our
> money supply without creating debt at the same time, and there's certainly
> no sense in spending money on infrastructure (or wars) if what we get from
> it all isn't anything we need. > > Martin Hattersley> > >
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