|
hi Joe
Although
there is some validity in your statements my experience in the UK
indicates that there are virtually no mambers of the present Socialist
group of parties in the Uk that have even heard of SC. In fact I had not heard
about SC until I came to NZ, and I was very active on the political scene in the
UK. Effectively the UK establishment has managed to muzzle any ideas about
monetary reform for the last 75 years. I believed that a new monetary reform
party has been formed in the UK over the last decade, but it does not follow SC
lines. I suppose that eventually when I visit he UK next I will have to make an
effort to conract them to ginr outy what they are doing.
Bill
McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 5:24
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance:
Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
It was once ''well received'' in the 'socialist'
British Labour Party, too. Until they realized its "object" was
something which did not quite mesh with the kind of socialism
envisioned by many of that group's 'guiding lights'.
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:42
AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance:
Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
Funny you should mention
socialists. I'm not exactly a socialist, but I am a member of
SDUSA/Socialist Party of America. (if there were a proper Christian
Democratic party around I'd camp there!) We operate mostly within the
Democratic Party and are open to working with Republicans as well. The few
times I have brought up social credit in our national committee meetings it
has been well received.
-----Original Message-----
From: John G Rawson
<johngrawson@hotmail.com>
To: Socred elistas
<socialcredit@elistas.com>
Sent: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:51
am
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
Thanks, Wally. It's all becoming so transparently clear. But nobody
important seems to be catching on. Particularly not among the
Socialists. Regards.
John R.
From: wmklinck@shaw.caTo: socialcredit@elistas.comDate:
Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:31:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance:
Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" The system, being increasingly non-
self-liquidating=2 0causes the financial world to resort to a proliferating
series of evermore tenuous artifices in an attempt to make an unworkable
system function. When the debt load becomes stretched to the limit of
any hope of debts being serviced confidence breaks and the whole thing comes
down like a deck of cards, making nonsense of all previous denials that the
financial system is unsound. Then the government, if wholesale
ruination is to be avoided, is more or less compelled to intervene with
injection of more of the same debt poison which caused the collapse in the
first place. They just borrow more money from the banking system and
carry on by further inflation of the money supply with it concomitant upward
pressure on the price-level, the inherent deficiency of purchasing-power
being set off further into the future by transforming the debt of the
private sector into permanent state debt. Of course we are all
expected to work harder and longer to meet the burden of inflating prices
and increased taxation resulting from interest charges on bloating state
debt. Of course, attempts by the state to reverse this situation by
endeavoring to run on balanced budgets and to pay down state debt just
constricts the economy while leaving the community of lesser governments and
individuals to shoulder the burden of the false debts that are increasing
exponentially. We now witness the futility and tragedy of this
unrealistic policy in the recent so-called credit "meltdown" and the
inevitable contraction of the=2 0economy which must come from the deflation.
But it serves those who confiscate the wealth of others and those who
would enhance the power of the state by proposing increasing state
intervention in the lives of the people--serving also the policy of forcing
nations increasingly into mergers leading to an eventual global government..
Sincerely
Wally Klinck
On 24-Nov-08, at 12:23 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
That
is correct here too. I guess worldwide it was decided to abasndon what our
Monetary Commission referred to as a "blunt instrument" for controlling
the money supply in favour of controlling the "willing borrower" aspect by
varying the price, i.e. interest rates. But that doesn't alter the fact
that the banking system needs reserves for interbank transactions, and in
the present situation, to shore up payments for withdrawals of
deposits. In effect, this is what the "bailout" is trying to
do. Amazing how governments are required to keep out of banking,
except when the banks need h elp! Regards.
John R.
From: wmklinck@shaw.caTo: socialcredit@elistas.comDate:
Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:03:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance:
Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" My understanding is that in Canada
reserve ratio requirements were discontinued some time ago for banks
operating under Federal Charter--and that only certain capital
requirements remain.
Wally
On 23-Nov-08, at 6:42 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
Sorry. It is
standard for banking anywhere. They can not lend their
liabilities. That applies to savings banks too, but it seems most of
them draw on commercial banks to back them. Money supply M1 (or M2 or
higher) includes, as its major component "demand deposits with the
financial institutions". That is where the money20paid into a bank goes.
The only ways banks could lend "money paid in to them" would be if the
deposits were reduced when this happened (they are not) or if by some
way the money magically doubled as it was paid in to the bank. That is
not the point at which it is considered to be multiplied. Every new
bank loan results in a creation of that amount of new money 'out of
nothing'. But, of course, banks need reserves to guard their
deposits. And also, under fractional reserve banking, any bank that
suffers complete loss of confidence by the public must go broke. That is
where the relevance of the reserve/deposit ratio comes
in. Regards. John R
From: telergy@bigpond.comTo: socialcredit@elistas.comDate:
Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:19:07 +1100 Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance:
Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
Well John R
it differs in different Nation States. In the US,
I think Clinton removed the seperation of lending banks and investment
banks,so that they can do both.
Australia's bank regulators kept ratios to about
10%, quite healthy compared to US and Europe.
George Jr and Greenspan don't believe in
regulation.
The best overview I get is from following
speeches at BIS (Bank of International Settlements) where central
bankers they openly talkabout increasing liquidity by lowering the
ratios for their banks.
My easy english version goes
"Imagine a money lender around AD 10. He has a bag
of gold, and people want to borrow some. More people want a loan than
the amount of gold he has. He realises that, by issuing tokens, he can
extend credit to all who want some, assuming that the debtors are a good
risk, and will be paying it back on time."
cheers
Graeme Taylor
ps Whatever has happened to all that gold in Fort
Knox?
-----
Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 24,
2008 7:36 AM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit]
Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
It is also a totally wrong explanation, and a not
uncommon error. 2% reserve ratio means $100 of loans for every ÂŁ2 of
RESERVES. Since loans create deposits, that ratio could never be
attained under any circumstances where deposits are concerned. The
writer forgot that bank deposits are their liabilities, and can never
be lent.
Regards.
John R.
From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date:
Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:08:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit]
Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
This not really an
alternate explanation. It is simply the false explanation which
has been promulgated from establishment sources. We are well
aware that every imaginable artifice involving the extension of debt
has been devised to make the economy function under a fundamentally
and fatally defective and unworkable financial system. What do
you mean by saying that you are "pretty well over the soc red
concept"? Do you mean that you possess a good understanding of
it?--or that you hold little or no hope of it being an effective
solution to financial and economic problems of the industrialized
world? Social Crediters intend to make it relevant and we cannot
afford to heed defeatist opinions. We are currently provided
with an almost unprecedented opportunity to advance our cause and we
must press on with increasing intensity. So--down with
hesitation and doubt and on with the job! I would not hold out
much hope from Barak Obama's term of office. Already he has
declared his intent to provide "jobs" for the population--hardly a
Social Credit policy.
Wally
On 21-Nov-08, at 8:47 PM, Graeme Taylor wrote:
Herewith an alternate
explanation
Because Green spam believed in the
market and self-correction of itself, he saw no need to regulate the
lending (reserve) ratios of the banks. Thus, it went below
2%.
That is, for every two dollars deposit,
a hundred in loans.
Europe's banks, attempting to maintain
market share, dropped their ratios down to 4 or 5%. Easy money
for borrowing, and a race to the bottom.
The CHinese Banks, in August
began by dropping their ratio for their Rural Bank to below 17%
so as to increase liquidity in the hope that rual incomes could
start to catch up to urban ones.
Now, I guess, they have dropped
their Infrastructure Bank's ratios as an economic stimulus
package.
Gordon Brown thought the best thing to
do is to invest in the banks. Yep. More money in the coffers helps
raise the lending ratios of their banks.
With a 2% ratio, (fractional reserve
money backed by virtually nothing), only a small proportion of
debtors going bankrupt sends the bank belly up.
I do hope that Barack gets better
advice than George Jr got.
I'm pretty over the soc cred concept.
Seriously, with up to 20% of the economy being illicit (drugs,
extortion), no perfect formula is gonna work, same as with people
going bankrupt.
cheers
Graeme Taylor
-----
Original Message -----
Sent: Friday,
November 21, 2008 10:12 PM
Subject: [socialcredit]
Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
This message has been sent to all Members of the Canadian
House of Commons:
I am forwarding a document outlining the basic
and underlying, as opposed to superficial, causes of the
current disastrous and ruinous credit "crisis" and the primary
essential remedial measures required to effect an honest and
stable financial system with it corollary, a viable producing and
consuming economic system. Also attached is a short PDF
showing how the Keynesian equations can be modified to achieve
these ends. (Not included in this
posting.)
Yours sincerely
Wallace M.
Klinck
FINANCE, DEBT AND
DEPRESSION
The
so-called economic and financial "experts" are apparently totally
oblivious to the fact that the financial price-system is
fundamentally and increasingly non- self-liquidating.
Consequently, they blame the credit "meltdown" and ensuing
economic collapse on excessive extension of loans (debt) issued
primarily without adequate regulatory legislation. The essential
problem is that while the convention is that industry, in order to
remain viable, must recover its financial costs in final prices,
the existing financial system makes this a mathematical
impossibility.
Final
price appears at the retail level. Consumers, being at the end of
the economic process, are required through expenditure of their
income, to liquidate all the financial costs of production. That
is a perfectly reasonable and accepted accountancy convention. The
crux of the liquidity failure is that, primarily due to the need
for industry to add to ret ail prices certain increasing allocated
charges in respect of capital, which do not constitute payment of
income in the same cycle of production, consumers are increasingly
short of income by which to meet the total retail prices
necessarily charged by industry.
Obviously,
if nothing intervened the economy would shut down. Of course, what
happens is that the consumer is evermore under necessity of
borrowing (contracting debt obligations) from the banking system,
that creates out of nothing the money that it lends as a repayable
debt. Eventually the debt overload so erodes the liquidity of the
financial system and the ability of consumers to contract and
service debt that consumers can no longer keep borrowing and/or
lenders cease to provide loans (in preparation for a "clean out"
by foreclosure upon the assets of the people who have laboured to
produce and acquire real wealth).
There
is nothing new about this confiscatory process. It has been
characteristic of the credit system for hundreds of years—going
back before creation
of the Bank of England in 1694. It can only be a deliberate policy
on the part of the few who are insiders "in the kno w" to
confiscate property and centralize both ownership of property and
political power.
If
the "experts" advice were followed and lending was simply
restricted, this would just slow down the development of economic
activity in spite of the national real capacity to conduct and
expand that activity. This would intensify the problem of
providing "jobs" with which they seem to be so strangely
concerned—showing again a complete confusion of mind about the
purpose of production—which purpose is not to provide work for
humanity but to provide desired goods and services with maximum
efficiency—which process involves minimization of all costs,
including that of labour. The purpose of production is
consumption—not the creation of work.
The
unfathomable fact is that so-called orthodox "economists" and
public policy makers think first of financial factors and last of
real, physical factors— and mindlessly accept the financial system
as a determinant of physical activity. Money is simply a unit of
account and should merely reflect, and never control, our physical
activity. The
whole thing, being a complete departure from reality, is quite
psychotic.
We
are told by our “expert” advisers that we are being cast into an
economic recession or slow down in actual physical production.
Have we suddenly lost our energy resources (our gas, petroleum and
electrical power), our mines and minerals, our information and
transportation services, our forests, our cultural heritage of
know-how and production expertise, etc.? Have our citizens
suddenly decided to sit down on their posteriors and not do
anything any more—has everyone suddenly become divested of
motivation, intelligence and capability? Our course not. On a
physical level everything remains essentially unchanged with an
already astonishing technological efficiency and productivity only
increasing exponentially over time. Yet, we are informed by the
“experts” that we are slipping inevitably into a recession
involving the slow down of real production. Anybody who believes
this to be unavoidable, as though some consequence natural law,
and is so perverse as to continue to believe it in the face of
actual facts, probably fully deserves the consequences of their
stupidity.
As,
William Aberhart, Social Credit Premier of the Province of Alberta
said years ago, "If the people haven't suffered enough, it
is20their God-given right to suffer some more." I think people are
guilt-ridden, because of sedulously inculcated false moral
imperatives, such as the adulation of work for it’s own sake.
Consequently they are masochistic, and therefore welcome misery as
a penance and cathartic for their induced artificial and misguided
feelings of guilt. The whole thing is quite mad.
The
physical cost of production is fully met when goods arrive
completed at retail. There is no need whatsoever for consumer
debt. What is required before all else is a secondary flow of
consumer credits injected extraneously into the price-system
without debt as Consumer Dividends and to effect Compensated
(lowered) Retail Prices at point of sale in order to permit
consumers full, immediate and dynamic access to all retail
goods—and to balance the price-system, so allowing business to
recover its financial costs so that it can continue to serve the
community if consumers so desire.
As
C. H. Douglas, founder of the Social Credit movement who offered
the only realistic alternative to currently accepted and
destructive Keynesian debt finance, said, "society is hypnotized
and only a drastic dehypnotization can save it." How much abuse
does it take t o arouse a placid and somnolent
public?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email telergy@bigpond.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No
virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version:
8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1804 - Release Date: 11/21/2008
6:24 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
Download today! Free Windows Live software.
Chat, search, share pics and more.---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email telergy@bigpond.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No
virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 /
Virus Database: 270.9.9/1807 - Release Date: 11/23/2008 10:59
AM ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
Start searching now Rental properties galore.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
Start searching now Rental properties galore.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
Find out at the SEEK Salary Centre Are you getting paid enough?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email adavans@aol.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
|
Re: [socialcredit]
Reply to this message
