| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" | | Date: | Friday, December 5, 2008 16:28:00 (+0000) | | From: | Kenneth Palmerton <kenpalmerton @................uk>
|
In-Reply-To: <004a01c955c9$bdaf2790$ba81c67c@HomePC>
Yes William.
Having nailed their colours to the "Labour theory of value" mast, they
went down with their ship :-(((
They never accepted that machines are not paid wages.
Ken.
-------- Original Message --------
*From:* "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
*To:* <socialcredit@elistas.com>
*Date:* Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:35:27 +1300
HI John et al
Socialists cannot subscribe to any monetary system that
would alter the status quo. If they did their pet policies would
evapourate, because the present needs of the lowest paid members of the
population would no longer exist, and their arguments about "taking over"
the means of production etc would no longer be valid. SC is a method of
ensuring that everyonge can attain to basic needs without resorting to
crippling debt or state hand outs. SC is as much a problem for Socialism
as it is for the converse. both systems would benefit by adopting SC but
entrenched power cliques see SC as a direct threat to their monopoly of
monetary control.
Bill McGunnigle
----- Original Message -----
From: John G Rawson
To: Socred elistas
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
Thanks, Wally. It's all becoming so transparently clear. But nobody
important seems to be catching on. Particularly not among the Socialists.
Regards.
John R.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:31:58 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
The system, being increasingly non- self-liquidating causes the
financial world to resort to a proliferating series of evermore tenuous
artifices in an attempt to make an unworkable system function. When the
debt load becomes stretched to the limit of any hope of debts being
serviced confidence breaks and the whole thing comes down like a deck of
cards, making nonsense of all previous denials that the financial system
is unsound. Then the government, if wholesale ruination is to be avoided,
is more or less compelled to intervene with injection of more of the same
debt poison which caused the collapse in the first place. They just
borrow more money from the banking system and carry on by further
inflation of the money supply with it concomitant upward pressure on the
price-level, the inherent deficiency of purchasing-power being set off
further into the future by transforming the debt of the private sector
into permanent state debt. Of course we are all expected to work harder
and longer to meet the burden of inflating prices and increased taxation
resulting from interest charges on bloating state debt. Of course,
attempts by the state to reverse this situation by endeavoring to run on
balanced budgets and to pay down state debt just constricts the economy
while leaving the community of lesser governments and individuals to
shoulder the burden of the false debts that are increasing exponentially.
We now witness the futility and tragedy of this unrealistic policy in the
recent so-called credit "meltdown" and the inevitable contraction of the
economy which must come from the deflation. But it serves those who
confiscate the wealth of others and those who would enhance the power of
the state by proposing increasing state intervention in the lives of the
people--serving also the policy of forcing nations increasingly into
mergers leading to an eventual global government..
Sincerely
Wally Klinck
On 24-Nov-08, at 12:23 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
That is correct here too. I guess worldwide it was decided to abasndon
what our Monetary Commission referred to as a "blunt instrument" for
controlling the money supply in favour of controlling the "willing
borrower" aspect by varying the price, i.e. interest rates.
But that doesn't alter the fact that the banking system needs reserves
for interbank transactions, and in the present situation, to shore up
payments for withdrawals of deposits. In effect, this is what the
"bailout" is trying to do.
Amazing how governments are required to keep out of banking, except
when the banks need help!
Regards.
John R.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:03:21 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
My understanding is that in Canada reserve ratio requirements were
discontinued some time ago for banks operating under Federal Charter--and
that only certain capital requirements remain.
Wally
On 23-Nov-08, at 6:42 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
Sorry. It is standard for banking anywhere. They can not lend their
liabilities. That applies to savings banks too, but it seems most of them
draw on commercial banks to back them.
Money supply M1 (or M2 or higher) includes, as its major component
"demand deposits with the financial institutions". That is where the money
paid into a bank goes. The only ways banks could lend "money paid in to
them" would be if the deposits were reduced when this happened (they are
not) or if by some way the money magically doubled as it was paid in to
the bank. That is not the point at which it is considered to be multiplied.
Every new bank loan results in a creation of that amount of new
money 'out of nothing'.
But, of course, banks need reserves to guard their deposits. And
also, under fractional reserve banking, any bank that suffers complete
loss of confidence by the public must go broke. That is where the
relevance of the reserve/deposit ratio comes in.
Regards. John R
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: telergy@bigpond.com
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:19:07 +1100
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
Well John R
it differs in different Nation States. In the US, I think Clinton
removed the seperation of lending banks and investment banks,so that they
can do both.
Australia's bank regulators kept ratios to about 10%, quite healthy
compared to US and Europe.
George Jr and Greenspan don't believe in regulation.
The best overview I get is from following speeches at BIS (Bank of
International Settlements) where central bankers they openly talkabout
increasing liquidity by lowering the ratios for their banks.
http://www.bis.org/list/cbspeeches/page_6.htm
My easy english version goes
"Imagine a money lender around AD 10. He has a bag of gold, and
people want to borrow some. More people want a loan than the amount of
gold he has. He realises that, by issuing tokens, he can extend credit to
all who want some, assuming that the debtors are a good risk, and will be
paying it back on time."
cheers
Graeme Taylor
ps Whatever has happened to all that gold in Fort Knox?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:36 AM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
It is also a totally wrong explanation, and a not uncommon error.
2% reserve ratio means $100 of loans for every £2 of RESERVES. Since loans
create deposits, that ratio could never be attained under any
circumstances where deposits are concerned. The writer forgot that bank
deposits are their liabilities, and can never be lent.
Regards.
John R.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:08:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
This not really an alternate explanation. It is simply the false
explanation which has been promulgated from establishment sources. We are
well aware that every imaginable artifice involving the extension of debt
has been devised to make the economy function under a fundamentally and
fatally defective and unworkable financial system. What do you mean by
saying that you are "pretty well over the soc red concept"? Do you mean
that you possess a good understanding of it?--or that you hold little or
no hope of it being an effective solution to financial and economic
problems of the industrialized world? Social Crediters intend to make it
relevant and we cannot afford to heed defeatist opinions. We are
currently provided with an almost unprecedented opportunity to advance our
cause and we must press on with increasing intensity. So--down with
hesitation and doubt and on with the job! I would not hold out much hope
from Barak Obama's term of office. Already he has declared his intent to
provide "jobs" for the population--hardly a Social Credit policy.
Wally
On 21-Nov-08, at 8:47 PM, Graeme Taylor wrote:
Herewith an alternate explanation
Because Green spam believed in the market and self-correction of
itself, he saw no need to regulate the lending (reserve) ratios of the
banks. Thus, it went below 2%.
That is, for every two dollars deposit, a hundred in loans.
Europe's banks, attempting to maintain market share, dropped
their ratios down to 4 or 5%. Easy money for borrowing, and a race to the
bottom.
The CHinese Banks, in August began by dropping their ratio for
their Rural Bank to below 17% so as to increase liquidity in the hope that
rual incomes could start to catch up to urban ones.
Now, I guess, they have dropped their Infrastructure Bank's
ratios as an economic stimulus package.
Gordon Brown thought the best thing to do is to invest in the
banks. Yep. More money in the coffers helps raise the lending ratios of
their banks.
With a 2% ratio, (fractional reserve money backed by virtually
nothing), only a small proportion of debtors going bankrupt sends the bank
belly up.
I do hope that Barack gets better advice than George Jr got.
I'm pretty over the soc cred concept. Seriously, with up to 20%
of the economy being illicit (drugs, extortion), no perfect formula is
gonna work, same as with people going bankrupt.
cheers
Graeme Taylor
----- Original Message -----
From: Wallace Klinck
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:12 PM
Subject: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
This message has been sent to all Members of the Canadian
House of Commons:
I am forwarding a document outlining the basic and underlying,
as opposed to superficial, causes of the current disastrous and ruinous
credit "crisis" and the primary essential remedial measures required to
effect an honest and stable financial system with it corollary, a viable
producing and consuming economic system. Also attached is a short PDF
showing how the Keynesian equations can be modified to achieve these ends.
(Not included in this posting.)
Yours sincerely
Wallace M. Klinck
FINANCE, DEBT AND DEPRESSION
The so-called economic and financial "experts" are apparently
totally oblivious to the fact that the financial price-system is
fundamentally and increasingly non- self-liquidating. Consequently, they
blame the credit "meltdown" and ensuing economic collapse on excessive
extension of loans (debt) issued primarily without adequate regulatory
legislation. The essential problem is that while the convention is that
industry, in order to remain viable, must recover its financial costs in
final prices, the existing financial system makes this a mathematical
impossibility.
Final price appears at the retail level. Consumers, being at
the end of the economic process, are required through expenditure of their
income, to liquidate all the financial costs of production. That is a
perfectly reasonable and accepted accountancy convention. The crux of the
liquidity failure is that, primarily due to the need for industry to add
to retail prices certain increasing allocated charges in respect of
capital, which do not constitute payment of income in the same cycle of
production, consumers are increasingly short of income by which to meet
the total retail prices necessarily charged by industry.
Obviously, if nothing intervened the economy would shut down.
Of course, what happens is that the consumer is evermore under necessity
of borrowing (contracting debt obligations) from the banking system, that
creates out of nothing the money that it lends as a repayable debt.
Eventually the debt overload so erodes the liquidity of the financial
system and the ability of consumers to contract and service debt that
consumers can no longer keep borrowing and/or lenders cease to provide
loans (in preparation for a "clean out" by foreclosure upon the assets of
the people who have laboured to produce and acquire real wealth).
There is nothing new about this confiscatory process. It has
been characteristic of the credit system for hundreds of years_going back
before creation of the Bank of England in 1694. It can only be a
deliberate policy on the part of the few who are insiders "in the know" to
confiscate property and centralize both ownership of property and
political power.
If the "experts" advice were followed and lending was simply
restricted, this would just slow down the development of economic activity
in spite of the national real capacity to conduct and expand that
activity. This would intensify the problem of providing "jobs" with which
they seem to be so strangely concerned_showing again a complete confusion
of mind about the purpose of production_which purpose is not to provide
work for humanity but to provide desired goods and services with maximum
efficiency_which process involves minimization of all costs, including
that of labour. The purpose of production is consumption_not the creation
of work.
The unfathomable fact is that so-called orthodox "economists"
and public policy makers think first of financial factors and last of
real, physical factors_ and mindlessly accept the financial system as a
determinant of physical activity. Money is simply a unit of account and
should merely reflect, and never control, our physical activity. The
whole thing, being a complete departure from reality, is quite psychotic.
We are told by our _expert_ advisers that we are being cast
into an economic recession or slow down in actual physical production.
Have we suddenly lost our energy resources (our gas, petroleum and
electrical power), our mines and minerals, our information and
transportation services, our forests, our cultural heritage of know-how
and production expertise, etc.? Have our citizens suddenly decided to sit
down on their posteriors and not do anything any more_has everyone
suddenly become divested of motivation, intelligence and capability? Our
course not. On a physical level everything remains essentially unchanged
with an already astonishing technological efficiency and productivity only
increasing exponentially over time. Yet, we are informed by the _experts_
that we are slipping inevitably into a recession involving the slow down
of real production. Anybody who believes this to be unavoidable, as though
some consequence natural law, and is so perverse as to continue to believe
it in the face of actual facts, probably fully deserves the consequences
of their stupidity.
As, William Aberhart, Social Credit Premier of the Province of
Alberta said years ago, "If the people haven't suffered enough, it is
their God-given right to suffer some more." I think people are
guilt-ridden, because of sedulously inculcated false moral imperatives,
such as the adulation of work for it_s own sake. Consequently they are
masochistic, and therefore welcome misery as a penance and cathartic for
their induced artificial and misguided feelings of guilt. The whole thing
is quite mad.
The physical cost of production is fully met when goods arrive
completed at retail. There is no need whatsoever for consumer debt. What
is required before all else is a secondary flow of consumer credits
injected extraneously into the price-system without debt as Consumer
Dividends and to effect Compensated (lowered) Retail Prices at point of
sale in order to permit consumers full, immediate and dynamic access to
all retail goods_and to balance the price-system, so allowing business to
recover its financial costs so that it can continue to serve the community
if consumers so desire.
As C. H. Douglas, founder of the Social Credit movement who
offered the only realistic alternative to currently accepted and
destructive Keynesian debt finance, said, "society is hypnotized and only
a drastic dehypnotization can save it." How much abuse does it take to
arouse a placid and somnolent public?
Wallace M. Klinck
wmklinck@shaw.ca
November 21, 2008
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email telergy@bigpond.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
--------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1804 - Release
Date: 11/21/2008 6:24 PM
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Download today! Free Windows Live software. Chat, search, share
pics and more.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email telergy@bigpond.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.9/1807 - Release Date:
11/23/2008 10:59 AM
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Start searching now Rental properties galore.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Start searching now Rental properties galore.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmklinck@shaw.ca
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email johngrawson@hotmail.com
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Find out at the SEEK Salary Centre Are you getting paid enough?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Some introductory materials to the discussion topic of this list are at
http://www.geocities.com/socredus/compendium
You're subscribed to this list with the email
kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk
For more information, visit http://www.eListas.com/list/socialcredit
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.14/1831 - Release Date:
04/12/2008 21:55
--
*Included Files:*
am2file:001-HTML_Message.html
|
Re: [socialcredit]
Reply to this message