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This is how I see it. Lets start at the bottom.
"5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?"
By enabling each cycle of production to be more fully financially
'self-liquidating' through the distribution to Consumers of the ND and CPD, the
exponential growth of otherwise unrepayable debt is halted. As the economy
continues to grow naturally over time, with a rise in population, increased
manufacturing efficiencies, etc., existing debts are reduced in proportion to
it, and can be gradually paid off.
"4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body,
treasury ior central bank, to do so?"
Whatever functions as a "National Credit Office" would be a purely
'statistical agency'. It may well be that all, or most, of the relevant
data is already collected by existing statistical agencies and the central banks
in most countries.
It appears there is already considerable "debt-free" money injected into
the economy through the so-called "open market" operations of the central
bank and trading in "repos" amongst the private banks.
One would think that there must already be some way of measuring the amount
of this activity that needs to be carried on. Perhaps not exactly, but
certainly within a safe margin.
If this is indeed the case, there should be nothing to stop what is now
injected this way at the "top" of the financial system to "trickle down",
from being replaced with similar sized injections as a ND and CPD at
the "bottom" of it. Through ongoing direct payments to
Consumers, from whom it would "percolate up", increasing the rate of business
profit with increased sales, allowing existing loans to be more fully
amortized, and needed and wanted production to be maintained.
This is one way in which Social Credit could be introduced gradually with a
high degree of safety and certainty that we were indeed on the right
course. There are no doubt others, but the ones I've seen,
while often seemingly attractive to the initiated, might prove to be
far more difficult to "sell" to a sceptical public.
"4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?"
Neither. "Consumers" will decide how this money is
to be spent. It is ''their'' money. Such a 'statistical agency',
which could be an adjunct to the central bank, (or independent from it),
may well decide how much of the overall 'money' might best be
directed towards the ND, and how much towards the CPD, based on ongoing
observations of just what is happening in the economy.
We would expect appropriate "government" oversight from
those we elect.
But just so long as those we elect as government have to
get the money they're so anxious to spend "for" us, "from" us, we will
have a chance of having a properly functioning democracy. The oft-repeated
ususal anti-bank 'monetary quotes' attributed to long-dead notables should
be joined by one more:- " Any "government" that's big enough to give
you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."
Your other questions, John, I cannot answer. I
have seen several proposed 'strategies' offered by several Social Crediters
for whom I have the utmost personal respect and admiration. In spite of that,
I would be less than honest if I said I feel that ANY of them have a
hope in Hell of ever working.
There has got to be an answer, and I firmly
believe it will only come in doing something we have not yet
tried. We are certainly NOT getting anywhere repeating things we have
tried.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:25
PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For
Info
Greetings all. First, let's face it. Douglas got
frustrated later in life and became anti-semitic in some of his
writings. The fact that about 60% of Britons then would have agreed with
him then has been overlooked. It was fashionable. But we now have to
live with it. It was an error on my part to mention it in passing.
Helge,
what you state is right on the button. Except that, while those who
control money can also control the media, we will not get unbiassed media.
When SC first went political in NZ we had to get a lawyer member to demand
that our main and best newspaper accept a paid advertisement from us! I
believe wartime regulations about subversive movements were cited. Our TV are
the worst here, regularly running distorted and misleading material regarding
monetary affairs. I presently have a formal complaint in with our Complaints
Authority on one programme, and although I have given cast-iron proof that the
two main points in the programme (one that banks lend money deposited with
them) are wrong, it is most unlikely that it will succeed.
Joe, apologies
for slightly excessive bluntness, but perhaps it stirred the debate along a
bit. But you still appear confused between money issued as a debt that gets
cancelled out of existence, leaving the debt, and debt-free money issued
so that when the same thing happens to it it leaves no debt behind. Yet you
tacitly advocate the latter for a Dividend etc.
I believe our
political approach has had its annual hammering, so can we please have a look
at the alternative? I'll number some points so that others can quote any where
they disagree without repeating the text. 1. Some ruling body has to legislate
S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right
direction.
2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved?
2b.
(Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this
aim, and how far was progress made?
3. Since we can not know what is
practicable until we have "proper national accounts", the first step
must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare
one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC
principles?
3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to
some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the
judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees. As
are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak
constitution have an even worse problem?
4. Will the Credit Authority
create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do
so?
4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?
5.
How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?
That's
probably plenty for a while.
Regards.
John R.
From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan
2009 09:03:40 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
I wouldn't disagree with any of that, Helge. Any
discussion of whether Social Credit is "anti-semitic" or not is apt to be
rather fruitless, however. Since that catch-phrase, like many others of
a similar ilk, is never clearly defined.
It is as nebulous as others that have crept into
the lexicon of catch-phrases in recent years. Ones in Canada like
"distinct-society", or "aboriginal title", or "sovereingty-association".
Or my favourite, since it's so often used in conjunction with the lumber
industry here in BC, "value-added". Try and get a concise definition on
that one from any of those who are always beating their gums in advocacy of
it, and all the wonders it supposedly will bring! And if I were to give
one definition, what I believe is the only correct one, how many of those
calling for "'value-added" would agree with me.
And so it is with "anti-semitism". It, like those
others, means different things to different people, and trying to defend
Social Credit itself against such a charge is likely to be an
exercise in futility unless those making the charge first define clearly what
they take that term to mean.
Interestingly, those who would make such a charge always
seem reluctant to do just that. Perhaps they realize that
just because one "philosophy" is incompatible with another, this certainly
does not mean any hatred need be inherent in either. Of course if the
policy of one philosophy embodies "live, and let live", while the
other posits, "you'll live just as we tell you to live, or we'll make it
impossible for you to live at all", we might have a problem.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:04
PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For
Info
It is unfortunate that a link appears to have been
established, in the popular mind, between Social Credit and anti-semitism.
That gives the bankers a tool to divide and conquer the movement, which is
what seems to have happened here in Alberta during the days of the
provincial Socred government.
The power of the state should be a concern
for all citizens, irrespective of the kind of government elected into
office.
The best way of keeping a government honest is to have a healthy
democracy where citizens take an active part in decision making by their
government. And that requires an unbiased press corps and an impartial
judicial system.
Money has a strange way of infiltrating all of these in
a corrosive way, as evidenced by what is happening around us at this
time.
Ideas which may seem to be "heretical" at first glance, in the
field of economics, as in other areas of intellectual endeavour, may be
deserving of a second look and further consideration before being discarded.
(Remember Copernicus, Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church).
I agree
with Per that we shall have to adapt to the present time and circumstances
without backing away from the belief that the wealth of nations belong to
the people who make up those nations, rather than the bankers who are merely
the managers of that wealth, not the owners that they pretend to
be.
Regards,
Helge Nome
> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:56:02
+0100
> From: almgren_per@telia.com
> To:
socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For
Info
>
> Joe Thomson skrev:
> > (John Rawson wrote:-)
Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into
> > circulation. And
yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along,
> > of course,
with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build
> >
autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a
>
> chance to link us further with anti-semitism.
> >
>
> (Joe replies:-) Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the
> > least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. You
may not
> > be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the
building of a
> > totalitarian "slave state", not a one in which
"individual" freedom
> > will be allowed to develop and flourish.
That the "slaves" will be
> > well fed and quartered, while
they're needed, is of little
> > consequence. They're still
"slaves", beholden for their continued
> > sustenance to
"servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes
> > on
them.
> In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John
describes.
> My impression now is that there is to much arguing of
what Douglas have
> expressed in a special situation in this list and
I think that if Social
> Credit should be of any use in the future,
it must be allowed to adjust
> to realities of to-day. If no new
thinking is accepted, there is not
> much use to discuss, it would
just be a seminar of history, not a forum
> for promoting useful
ideas for practical use in the society.
> >
> > This is
the very antithesis of "Social Credit". It is "Fascism"
> >
without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing
> > themselves. Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. It
is
> > interesting that we have been duped into calling this
'anti-semitism'
> > considering where such a policy likely
originated.
> This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning
of the word.
>
> Per Almgren
> >
> > (John
continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to
>
> be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be
> > in the same category, which is ridiculous.
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) It is "repaid", John. It cancels that portion
of
> > /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid.
Without
> > creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. It is an
"accounting
> > adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole
to more fully allow
> > the overall costs of production to be
FINANCIALLY, as well as
> > 'physically', self-liquidating with
consumption.
> >
> >
> > (John continues:-) An
independent Credit Authority would assess how
> > much new money
needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing
> > period
without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be
> >
used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a
> > divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend.
Or
> > reducing taxation.
> >
> > (Joe
replies:-) I can generally agree with that provided it be
> >
realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to Consumers
> > FIRST, not to funding other things which have additional
"costs".
> >
> > Regards,
> > Joe
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* John G
Rawson <mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> > *To:* Socred
elistas <mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > *Sent:*
Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM
> > *Subject:* RE:
[socialcredit] Looking For Info
> >
> > For the first
parts, you have valid points. I have never debated
> > whether or
not some form of price control might be necessary. But
> > based on
the rather inane information that had previously been
> >
circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be
>
> practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that
>
> objection.
> > Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into
circulation. And
> > yes, we did lead the world out of the slump.
Along, of course,
> > with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods
to build autobahns
> > etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our
opponents a chance to
> > link us further with
anti-semitism.
> > And, of course, your argument that new money has
to be repaid
> > means that any used for the National Dividend etc.
would be in the
> > same category, which is ridiculous. An
independent Credit
> > Authority would assess how much new money
needed to be put into
> > circulation during the ensuing period
without causing demand
> > inflation. What that money was to be
used for would be a political
> > decision, even if it only
considered a divarication between
> > discount funds and those for
a dividend. Or reducing taxation.
> > The Ottawa agreement did
nothing to increase trade or spending
> > power. All it did was to
close shop against other nations. And
> > one of its minor
sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains
> > of forest seed
from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir
> > appeared to have
come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,
> > because the
lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early
> > in the
spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder
> > climate
in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about
> > Christmas
and ceased growing through all the warm summer and
> > autumn
period. I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest
> > planted
with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or
> >
wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the
> >
canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making
>
> over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government
that
> > helped both public health and a major industry by the use
of
> > debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the
same
> > thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought
us right
> > out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import
controls)
> > came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a
bureaucracy
> > subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not
wholemeal!)
> > But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food.
People were
> > starving and it used one method to help them.
Coming from a
> > (broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went
hungry. But I knew men
> > my age whose developmenmt was stunted
for that reason.
> > It seems we may have to revisit times like
that before enough
> > people will again consider monetary reform.
in any shape, SC or other.
> >
> > John R.
>
>
>
>
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