| Subject: | Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression" | | Date: | Friday, December 12, 2008 12:36:00 (+0000) | | From: | Kenneth Palmerton <kenpalmerton @................uk>
|
In-Reply-To: <008101c95bfc$34c03df0$d681c67c@HomePC>
Dear William.
I sympathise with your problems of conscience, there has indeed been a
crisis of political philosophy here in the UK, as indeed I think there has
been worldwide.
Even the confusion between "Labour" and "Socialist" has blurred the
divisions between political parties offering themselves to the electorate
for election to Parliament. I do not know when last there were Socialists
in power here. You offer Attlee, but I wonder even at that.
As for TINA (Thatcher) what sort of Tory would you say she was ? For me
she was an unreconstructed Nineteenth Century Liberal :-( A mode of
thinking that the current Liberal Democrats, or the former Liberal party
had moved beyond more than a hundred years ago.
She set us back at least a generation here. And not just gender equality
:-(((
You refer to a Communist upsurge in post WW2 Britain. What do you mean ?
If you mean what came to be called the post war settlement, that was not
even the idea of the Socialists that the people swept to power in 1945.
Those ideas were the brainchild of pre war Liberals. With the only
problems in my estimation being that it was centralising Socialists that
had the opportunity to implement them, with the inevitable result that
Tories, who had always hated social progress for the majority, were able
to attack and dismantle some of them when their electoral turn came
around:-(
I have watched with great interest the NZ political scene, particularly
the struggles of monetary reformers. In fact when you turned to a more
sensible electoral system I thought that there was a serious chance of
such ideas coming to the fore.
I am still watching, and waiting :-)))
Ken.
-------- Original Message --------
*From:* "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
*To:* <socialcredit@elistas.com>
*Date:* Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:51:52 +1300
HI Kenneth
Ironically I am a NZ citizen by adoption and hold dual
nationality, I spent the first 30 years od my life in the UK and was an
active member of the proper conservative party of the 1950's. I left the
UK
because the political changes I could see coming were nort ones that I
could
accept. Once in NZ I shopped around until I found a political party that
agreed most closely to my personal belief, and that proved to be the SC
political league. as it was called then. It was quite a shock for me top
find that my old consercvative philosphy coincided so much with their
views. Quite candidly, I do not believe that any of the political parties
represented in the present UK House of Commoms could jistify my support.
Particularly the present Labour party, which for me has betrayed
everything
that ot is supposed to represent. This I feel has been true of all Labour
governmentd in the UK since the Harold Wilson era. Atlee was the last true
Laboutr prime minister in the UK, and his government in 1945-51 was
instrumental in preventing a big communist upsurge in post WW2 Britain. IT
is most unfortunater that he decided in 1951 to call an election after
only
q year in office because I believe that had he toughed it out by 1954 the
economic climate would have produced conditions that would have returned
him to office with a bigger majoriuty. as it did for the conservatives in
1955 and 1960. I do not believe that the Thatcherite era would have took
place if that had been the case to the immense benefit of the UK.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kenneth Palmerton" <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <socialcredit@elistas.com>
Cc: <kenpalmerton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
> In-Reply-To: <003d01c955c8$4c978b70$ba81c67c@HomePC>
> Dear William.
>
> You speak of a "Socialist group of parties" in the UK.
>
> Please tell me more. For I have been involved in main stream politics
here
> for more than Fifty years as a party activist, and believe that such an
> animal, if it ever existed, is critically endangered :-)))
>
> Certainly not represented in Parliament, and hardly visible in local
> Government either.
>
> In fact you Kiwis stole back probably the last living example,Brian
Gould.
> He left us having made a devastating video about the relationship between
> the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the bank of england.
>
> Austin Mitchell, MP for Great Grimsby, is probably the closest we get
now,
> though come to think of it he was a Kiwi too :-)
>
> Ken.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
> *From:* "William Hugh McGunnigle" <wmcgunn@maxnet.co.nz>
> *To:* <socialcredit@elistas.com>
> *Date:* Thu, 4 Dec 2008 17:35:27 +1300
>
> HI John et al
> Socialists cannot subscribe to any monetary system that
> would alter the status quo. If they did their pet policies would
> evapourate, because the present needs of the lowest paid members of the
> population would no longer exist, and their arguments about "taking over"
> the means of production etc would no longer be valid. SC is a method of
> ensuring that everyonge can attain to basic needs without resorting to
> crippling debt or state hand outs. SC is as much a problem for Socialism
> as it is for the converse. both systems would benefit by adopting SC but
> entrenched power cliques see SC as a direct threat to their monopoly of
> monetary control.
> Bill McGunnigle
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John G Rawson
> To: Socred elistas
> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:51 PM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
>
> Thanks, Wally. It's all becoming so transparently clear. But nobody
> important seems to be catching on. Particularly not among the
Socialists.
> Regards.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:31:58 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
> The system, being increasingly non- self-liquidating causes the
> financial world to resort to a proliferating series of evermore tenuous
> artifices in an attempt to make an unworkable system function. When the
> debt load becomes stretched to the limit of any hope of debts being
> serviced confidence breaks and the whole thing comes down like a deck of
> cards, making nonsense of all previous denials that the financial system
> is unsound. Then the government, if wholesale ruination is to be
avoided,
> is more or less compelled to intervene with injection of more of the same
> debt poison which caused the collapse in the first place. They just
> borrow more money from the banking system and carry on by further
> inflation of the money supply with it concomitant upward pressure on the
> price-level, the inherent deficiency of purchasing-power being set off
> further into the future by transforming the debt of the private sector
> into permanent state debt. Of course we are all expected to work harder
> and longer to meet the burden of inflating prices and increased taxation
> resulting from interest charges on bloating state debt. Of course,
> attempts by the state to reverse this situation by endeavoring to run on
> balanced budgets and to pay down state debt just constricts the economy
> while leaving the community of lesser governments and individuals to
> shoulder the burden of the false debts that are increasing exponentially.
> We now witness the futility and tragedy of this unrealistic policy in the
> recent so-called credit "meltdown" and the inevitable contraction of the
> economy which must come from the deflation. But it serves those who
> confiscate the wealth of others and those who would enhance the power of
> the state by proposing increasing state intervention in the lives of the
> people--serving also the policy of forcing nations increasingly into
> mergers leading to an eventual global government..
> Sincerely
> Wally Klinck
>
>
>
>
> On 24-Nov-08, at 12:23 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>
>
> That is correct here too. I guess worldwide it was decided to abasndon
> what our Monetary Commission referred to as a "blunt instrument" for
> controlling the money supply in favour of controlling the "willing
> borrower" aspect by varying the price, i.e. interest rates.
> But that doesn't alter the fact that the banking system needs reserves
> for interbank transactions, and in the present situation, to shore up
> payments for withdrawals of deposits. In effect, this is what the
> "bailout" is trying to do.
> Amazing how governments are required to keep out of banking, except
> when the banks need help!
> Regards.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 01:03:21 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and "Depression"
>
> My understanding is that in Canada reserve ratio requirements were
> discontinued some time ago for banks operating under Federal Charter--and
> that only certain capital requirements remain.
> Wally
>
>
>
>
> On 23-Nov-08, at 6:42 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sorry. It is standard for banking anywhere. They can not lend their
> liabilities. That applies to savings banks too, but it seems most of them
> draw on commercial banks to back them.
> Money supply M1 (or M2 or higher) includes, as its major component
> "demand deposits with the financial institutions". That is where the
money
> paid into a bank goes. The only ways banks could lend "money paid in to
> them" would be if the deposits were reduced when this happened (they are
> not) or if by some way the money magically doubled as it was paid in to
> the bank. That is not the point at which it is considered to be
> multiplied.
> Every new bank loan results in a creation of that amount of new
> money 'out of nothing'.
> But, of course, banks need reserves to guard their deposits. And
> also, under fractional reserve banking, any bank that suffers complete
> loss of confidence by the public must go broke. That is where the
> relevance of the reserve/deposit ratio comes in.
> Regards. John R
>
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From: telergy@bigpond.com
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 09:19:07 +1100
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
"Depression"
>
>
>
> Well John R
>
> it differs in different Nation States. In the US, I think Clinton
> removed the seperation of lending banks and investment banks,so that they
> can do both.
> Australia's bank regulators kept ratios to about 10%, quite healthy
> compared to US and Europe.
> George Jr and Greenspan don't believe in regulation.
> The best overview I get is from following speeches at BIS (Bank of
> International Settlements) where central bankers they openly talkabout
> increasing liquidity by lowering the ratios for their banks.
>
> http://www.bis.org/list/cbspeeches/page_6.htm
>
> My easy english version goes
> "Imagine a money lender around AD 10. He has a bag of gold, and
> people want to borrow some. More people want a loan than the amount of
> gold he has. He realises that, by issuing tokens, he can extend credit to
> all who want some, assuming that the debtors are a good risk, and will be
> paying it back on time."
>
>
> cheers
> Graeme Taylor
>
> ps Whatever has happened to all that gold in Fort Knox?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:36 AM
> Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
>
> It is also a totally wrong explanation, and a not uncommon error.
> 2% reserve ratio means $100 of loans for every £2 of RESERVES. Since
loans
> create deposits, that ratio could never be attained under any
> circumstances where deposits are concerned. The writer forgot that bank
> deposits are their liabilities, and can never be lent.
> Regards.
>
> John R.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:08:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
> This not really an alternate explanation. It is simply the false
> explanation which has been promulgated from establishment sources. We
are
> well aware that every imaginable artifice involving the extension of debt
> has been devised to make the economy function under a fundamentally and
> fatally defective and unworkable financial system. What do you mean by
> saying that you are "pretty well over the soc red concept"? Do you mean
> that you possess a good understanding of it?--or that you hold little or
> no hope of it being an effective solution to financial and economic
> problems of the industrialized world? Social Crediters intend to make it
> relevant and we cannot afford to heed defeatist opinions. We are
> currently provided with an almost unprecedented opportunity to advance
our
> cause and we must press on with increasing intensity. So--down with
> hesitation and doubt and on with the job! I would not hold out much hope
> from Barak Obama's term of office. Already he has declared his intent to
> provide "jobs" for the population--hardly a Social Credit policy.
>
>
> Wally
>
>
>
>
>
> On 21-Nov-08, at 8:47 PM, Graeme Taylor wrote:
>
>
> Herewith an alternate explanation
>
> Because Green spam believed in the market and self-correction of
> itself, he saw no need to regulate the lending (reserve) ratios of the
> banks. Thus, it went below 2%.
> That is, for every two dollars deposit, a hundred in loans.
>
> Europe's banks, attempting to maintain market share, dropped
> their ratios down to 4 or 5%. Easy money for borrowing, and a race to the
> bottom.
>
> The CHinese Banks, in August began by dropping their ratio for
> their Rural Bank to below 17% so as to increase liquidity in the hope
that
> rual incomes could start to catch up to urban ones.
> Now, I guess, they have dropped their Infrastructure Bank's
> ratios as an economic stimulus package.
>
> Gordon Brown thought the best thing to do is to invest in the
> banks. Yep. More money in the coffers helps raise the lending ratios of
> their banks.
>
> With a 2% ratio, (fractional reserve money backed by virtually
> nothing), only a small proportion of debtors going bankrupt sends the
bank
> belly up.
>
> I do hope that Barack gets better advice than George Jr got.
>
> I'm pretty over the soc cred concept. Seriously, with up to 20%
> of the economy being illicit (drugs, extortion), no perfect formula is
> gonna work, same as with people going bankrupt.
>
> cheers
> Graeme Taylor
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wallace Klinck
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 10:12 PM
> Subject: [socialcredit] Finance: Credit "Crisis" and
> "Depression"
>
>
> This message has been sent to all Members of the Canadian
> House of Commons:
>
>
>
>
> I am forwarding a document outlining the basic and underlying,
> as opposed to superficial, causes of the current disastrous and ruinous
> credit "crisis" and the primary essential remedial measures required to
> effect an honest and stable financial system with it corollary, a viable
> producing and consuming economic system. Also attached is a short PDF
> showing how the Keynesian equations can be modified to achieve these
ends.
> (Not included in this posting.)
>
> Yours sincerely
> Wallace M. Klinck
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> FINANCE, DEBT AND DEPRESSION
> The so-called economic and financial "experts" are apparently
> totally oblivious to the fact that the financial price-system is
> fundamentally and increasingly non- self-liquidating. Consequently, they
> blame the credit "meltdown" and ensuing economic collapse on excessive
> extension of loans (debt) issued primarily without adequate regulatory
> legislation. The essential problem is that while the convention is that
> industry, in order to remain viable, must recover its financial costs in
> final prices, the existing financial system makes this a mathematical
> impossibility.
> Final price appears at the retail level. Consumers, being at
> the end of the economic process, are required through expenditure of
their
> income, to liquidate all the financial costs of production. That is a
> perfectly reasonable and accepted accountancy convention. The crux of the
> liquidity failure is that, primarily due to the need for industry to add
> to retail prices certain increasing allocated charges in respect of
> capital, which do not constitute payment of income in the same cycle of
> production, consumers are increasingly short of income by which to meet
> the total retail prices necessarily charged by industry.
> Obviously, if nothing intervened the economy would shut down.
> Of course, what happens is that the consumer is evermore under necessity
> of borrowing (contracting debt obligations) from the banking system, that
> creates out of nothing the money that it lends as a repayable debt.
> Eventually the debt overload so erodes the liquidity of the financial
> system and the ability of consumers to contract and service debt that
> consumers can no longer keep borrowing and/or lenders cease to provide
> loans (in preparation for a "clean out" by foreclosure upon the assets of
> the people who have laboured to produce and acquire real wealth).
> There is nothing new about this confiscatory process. It has
> been characteristic of the credit system for hundreds of years_going back
> before creation of the Bank of England in 1694. It can only be a
> deliberate policy on the part of the few who are insiders "in the know"
to
> confiscate property and centralize both ownership of property and
> political power.
> If the "experts" advice were followed and lending was simply
> restricted, this would just slow down the development of economic
activity
> in spite of the national real capacity to conduct and expand that
> activity. This would intensify the problem of providing "jobs" with which
> they seem to be so strangely concerned_showing again a complete confusion
> of mind about the purpose of production_which purpose is not to provide
> work for humanity but to provide desired goods and services with maximum
> efficiency_which process involves minimization of all costs, including
> that of labour. The purpose of production is consumption_not the creation
> of work.
> The unfathomable fact is that so-called orthodox "economists"
> and public policy makers think first of financial factors and last of
> real, physical factors_ and mindlessly accept the financial system as a
> determinant of physical activity. Money is simply a unit of account and
> should merely reflect, and never control, our physical activity. The
> whole thing, being a complete departure from reality, is quite psychotic.
> We are told by our _expert_ advisers that we are being cast
> into an economic recession or slow down in actual physical production.
> Have we suddenly lost our energy resources (our gas, petroleum and
> electrical power), our mines and minerals, our information and
> transportation services, our forests, our cultural heritage of know-how
> and production expertise, etc.? Have our citizens suddenly decided to sit
> down on their posteriors and not do anything any more_has everyone
> suddenly become divested of motivation, intelligence and capability? Our
> course not. On a physical level everything remains essentially unchanged
> with an already astonishing technological efficiency and productivity
only
> increasing exponentially over time. Yet, we are informed by the _experts_
> that we are slipping inevitably into a recession involving the slow down
> of real production. Anybody who believes this to be unavoidable, as
though
> some consequence natural law, and is so perverse as to continue to
believe
> it in the face of actual facts, probably fully deserves the consequences
> of their stupidity.
> As, William Aberhart, Social Credit Premier of the Province of
> Alberta said years ago, "If the people haven't suffered enough, it is
> their God-given right to suffer some more." I think people are
> guilt-ridden, because of sedulously inculcated false moral imperatives,
> such as the adulation of work for it_s own sake. Consequently they are
> masochistic, and therefore welcome misery as a penance and cathartic for
> their induced artificial and misguided feelings of guilt. The whole thing
> is quite mad.
> The physical cost of production is fully met when goods arrive
> completed at retail. There is no need whatsoever for consumer debt. What
> is required before all else is a secondary flow of consumer credits
> injected extraneously into the price-system without debt as Consumer
> Dividends and to effect Compensated (lowered) Retail Prices at point of
> sale in order to permit consumers full, immediate and dynamic access to
> all retail goods_and to balance the price-system, so allowing business to
> recover its financial costs so that it can continue to serve the
community
> if consumers so desire.
> As C. H. Douglas, founder of the Social Credit movement who
> offered the only realistic alternative to currently accepted and
> destructive Keynesian debt finance, said, "society is hypnotized and only
> a drastic dehypnotization can save it." How much abuse does it take to
> arouse a placid and somnolent public?
> Wallace M. Klinck
> wmklinck@shaw.ca
> November 21, 2008
>
>
>
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