On 6-Jan-09, at 6:58 AM, Kenneth Palmerton wrote:
In-Reply-To: <
44080725-58BE-4B63-821D-AFD4E37B0836@shaw.ca>
Hi Wallace.
My apologies, put it down to failing memory, and disobedient typing
fingers :-(((
You are of course right.
Up until Frances took over the secretariat I had steered clear well of
them.
WHY WOULD YOU HAVE AVOIDED THE SECRETARIAT AS THE OFFICIAL
SOCIAL CREDIT BODY ESTABLISHED BY DOUGLAS, ASSISTED BY HIS CLOSE SUPPORTERS?
But Vic Hadkins, and his wife, I knew well, in fact he gifted the
coordinating centres library to me when he finally gave up. The remaining
stock of Norman Smiths last book were mine to give away :-)
I DID NOT KNOW VICTOR HADKINS WELL BUT HAD SOME CORRESPONDENCE WITH HIM AND
OBTAINED A NUMBER OF PUBLICATIONS FROM HIS SOCIAL CREDIT CO-ORDINGTING CENTRE.
ALSO I MET HIM A COUPLE OF TIMES, I BELIEVE, WHEN HE MADE TRIPS TO CANADA
PROMOTING SOCIAL CREDIT. ONE OF MY BROTHERS AND I VISITED HIM IN MEXBOROUGH WHILE
TOURING BRITAIN ABOUT THIRTY SOME YEARS AGO. THIS TOUR INTRODUCED US TO A NUMBER\
OF SOCIAL CREDITERS AT THAT TIME, INCLUDING DR. BASIL STEELE (THEN CHAIRMAN OF THE
SECRETARIAT IN LONDON), THE CATMUR FAMILY, CECIL KEENE (PUBISHER OF "CREDIT NOTES"),
DR. JEFFREY DOBBS AND HIS WIFE ELIZABETH IN BANGOR, JOHN MITCHELL (PUBLISHER OF "VOICE"),
AND OTHERS NORTHWARD TO ABERDEEN--INCLUDING THE GROUP OF DOUGLAS SUPPORTERS UP AT
LOCH TAY IN SCOTLAND, DOUGLAS'S BURIAL PLACE. OTHER CONTACTS WERE MADE IN LIVERPOOL,
GLASGOW, DEVON, ETC.
"Abundance" was only published in fits and starts for some time before
this.
IT WAS A RELATIVELY SIMPLE AND INNOCUOUS LITTLE JOURNAL PUT OUT IN AN ATTRACTIVE FORMAT.
I BELIEVE THAT I HAVE MOST IF NOT ALL COPIES.
I find it surprising that Martin is considered a revisionist. If anyone
understood Douglas`s ideas it was the Hattersleys. I still have some of
"Grandmas" writings from her time in Alberta. They are great:-)
WELL, THE BEST THING FOR YOU TO DO IS TO CONTACT MARTIN DIRECTLY
AND ASK HIM WHAT, PRECISELY, IS HIS POSITION. I CANNOT SPEAK FOR
HIM.
Though I have a good mate, Brian Leslie, a lovely man, a green party
stalwart, whose Father and Mother were prominent Greenshirts, who I still
joust with on what I believe is his misunderstanding of A+B :-)))
OBVIOUSLY THERE SEEMS TO BE A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION HERE ALSO.
WOULD YOU CARE TO ELABORATE FOR EVERYONE'S BENEFIT?
JOHN HARGRAVE'S "GREENSHIRT" MOVEMENT WAS AN INTERESTING
EXPERIMENT IN MILITANT EDUCATIONAL PROMOTION--VERY
COLORFUL AND ATTENTION-GETTING. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE BANNING
IN BRITAIN OF UNIFORMED ORGANIZATIONS MAY HAVE BEEN DONE
UNDER A PRETEXT OF THE "ESTABLISHMENT" WITH THE ACTUAL PURPOSE
BEING TO TO SUPPRESS THE GREENSHIRTS. OF COURSE, MOSLEY'S HOSTILE
FASCISTS WERE ALSO ACTIVE AND SOMETIMES, I UNDERSTAND, TRIED
TO BREAK UP GREENSHIRT MEETINGS OR DEMONSTRATIONS.
As a "Newcomer" to MR affairs, only some Forty years now, I find it
distressing that there have been such schisms within the movement.
Including the estrangements with the Georgists.
SOCIAL CREDIT IS OPPOSED TO TAXATION ON REAL PROPERTY AND
TO MY KNOWLEDGE HAS ALWAYS SO BEEN. THEREFORE, THERE CANNOT
HAVE BEEN ANY "ESTRANGEMENTS" WITH THE HENRY GEORGE SCHOOL.
THERE WAS NEVER, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, ANY RELATIONSHIP IN THE FIRST PLACE--
ALTHOUGH SOME GEORGITES SEEM TO MAKE AN EFFORT TO INTRUDE
THEMSELVES INTO THE SOCIAL CREDIT MOVEMENT.
But then if you are a conspiracy theorist, like me, then we can, I
believe, find lots of reasons for the movement to have been penetrated by
our very powerful opponents, for their own ends :-(((
THERE ARE DIFFERENT REASONS FOR DIFFERENCES OF OPINIONS. SOME
PEOPLE JUST HAVE NOT APPLIED THEMSELVES ADEQUATELY TO STUDYING
DOUGLAS. SOME HAVE TRIED AND FOUND THE TASK BEYOND THEIR ABILITY
OR PATIENCE. SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST NEVER CONVINCED OF ANYTHING AND SOME
FOR EGOTISTICAL REASONS ARE MORE INTERESTED IN UPSTAGING RATHER
THAN LEARNING. MOST CERTAINLY THERE ARE NUMEROUS INSTANCES OF
PEOPLE INSERTING THEMSELVES AMONGST SOCIAL CREDIT CIRCLES WITH
THE PURPOSE OF SOWING CONFUSION AND DISSENSION. WITH
EXPERIENCE ONE LEARNS TO IDENTIFY SUCH ATTEMPTS AT
SABOTAGE. OF COURSE, INEVITABLY HONEST PEOPLE WILL FOR LACK
OF FULL KNOWLEDGE DISAGREE FROM TIME TO TIME.
Which of Martins articles are you referring to please ?
THE ARTICLE IS ENTITLED: "SECTOR ACCOUNTS AND THE DOUGLAS PROPOSALS--
Monetary Reform in the 1990's" (JULY, 1992).I BELIEVE IT WAS POSTED ON HIS WEBSITE--BUT I HAVE JUST TRIED TO ACCESS THE SITE
AND IT SEEMS TO BE UNAVAILABLE. I HAVE MESSAGED MARTIN TO ASCERTAIN WHETHER
OR NOT HE IS STILL MAINTAINING HIS SITE. WILL LET YOU KNOW IF HE REPLIES.
Ken.
-------- Original Message --------
*From:* Wallace Klinck <
wmklinck@shaw.ca>
*To:*
socialcredit@elistas.com*Date:* Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:35:21 -0700
Ken, his name is J. Martin Hattersley--his father before him was
Charles Marshall Hattersley who was an early exponent of Social Credit
who established the Social Credit Co-ordinating Centre in Mexborough,
Yorkshire which produced a journal called "Abundance." This is to be
quite differentiated from the Social Credit Secretariat established by
Douglas as the official and authoritative body representing Social
Credit. The two institutions were not connected and operated quite
separately. There appear to have been some differences of policy and
technical interpretation and I think it is correct to say that for his
own reasons Martin himself today disputes Douglas's method of
estimating the disparity between prices and purchasing-power,
believing the income deficiency to be less than indicated by
Douglas. Martin has written an article on this subject and a rebuttal
has been published.
Wally
On 5-Jan-09, at 11:15 AM, Kenneth Palmerton wrote:
In-Reply-To: <COL113-W5489033A6F56C040437AD3A5E10@phx.gbl>
Hi Helge.
Delighted to see that the ideas of sound money are not forgotten in
Alberta :-)
Your story has fascinated me for many years.
The most up to date, in print books that I know of are available from
Frances Hutchinson in Yorkshire, who currently runs the Social Credit
secretariat, and their journal. And from Jon Carpenter, who is the
publisher of Mike Rowbothams books.
If either of them is not known to you, and I would find that
surprising, I
would be delighted to pass their addresses on to you.
I hope that you are in contact with Martin Marshall Hattersley. He,
and
his family before him, probably know more about the struggle in
Alberta
than anyone alive.
My best wishes to you
Ken.
-------- Original Message --------
*From:* helge nome <helgenome@hotmail.com>
*To:* <socialcredit@elistas.com>, <socialcredit@fsbdial.co.uk>
*CC:* <thtardif@hotmail.com>, <thtardif@sympatico.ca>,
<mail@michaeljournal.org>, <versdemain@citenet.net>,
<alainpilote@hotmail.com>, <michaeljournal@gmail.com>,
<siebenthal@gmail.com>
*Date:* Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:17:58 -0700
Hi All,
We are in the process of rebuilding the Social Credit Movement here in
Alberta and we are looking for simple introductory material on Social
Credit for people who have never heard about it before (99.8%), and
who
are not necessarily particularly interested in economics as a field of
study. We would appreciate if any of you could direct us to suitable
sources.
Thanking You,
Helge Nome
V.P. Communications,
Alberta Social Credit Party
_________________________________________________________________
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