Thanks, Joe. That has made more sense than anyone else has come up with so far. We are not looking at a "just price" for every article, but a "just profit" for every business.
That would certainly reduce the "paperwork" considerably.
However, I can not go along with the "competition" angle. It didn't work with our recent housing "bubble" and we had no shortage of properties in this young country loaded with willing (and ravenous,and preyed on by inefficient local Councils) developers. Once there is enough money to buy all the goods in any field, competition becomes a myth.
So OK, I can't prove that last point, but neither can you prove yours. So it comes down to an assessment of risk, and personally I'm not prepared to risk something as important as possible blowup of the whole economy.
Regards.
John R.
From:
thomsonhiyu@shaw.caTo:
socialcredit@elistas.comDate: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:00:03 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
(John Rawson wrote:-) "Would you like to tell me whether we would have an army of bureaucrats enforcing "just prices" for every article, or alternatively, what is to stop the discount scheme simply subsidising rising prices? Nobody else appears to be able to."
(Joe replies:-) Since John and I have had many 'off-list' exchanges on this subject, as well as others in this forum, I don't feel that I am pre-empting any answer Wally might give on the questions John's asked above by replying to them. I hope Wally and others will also attempt to further address them, for they are pertinent questions that do deserve answers.
John, there is one thing which is absolutely, positively, 100% certain. There will be NO "army of bureaucrats" enforcing "just prices" for every article. There is NO need for that, nor would it be practical, nor was it ever anything Douglas ever envisioned or proposed.
I believe, from what I have read, that the conception of that kind of utterly inane price regulation originated from Aberhart's initial mis-interpretation of Douglas's proposals. Or what he may have read into someone else's attempts to explain them when he was first introduced to Social Credit.
The whole conception of a National Dividend and a Consumer Price Discount is that they are "macro-economic" accounting corrections, necessary to increase EFFECTIVE DEMAND available to Consumers in their day-to-day transactions in the "micro-economy".
We are not particularly concerned about whether the nominal price of one article or another rises or falls. Free market competiton, if it is present, and it generally is, will regulate that very efficiently. It already does.
Where it isn't present, in situations where there is a natural 'monopoly', such as in the provision of electricity, for instance, we can regulate prices by having a Public Utilities Commission or some similar authority, to whom the case for any price increases must be put. These agencies already exist in many jurisdictions, regulating the few things which are best operated as 'monopolies', and they function quite effectively.
What any merchant who agrees to participate in a Consumer Price Discount scheme is agreeing to do is that he will:-
(a.) keep an additional entry in his books showing his actual periodic 'profit' on turnover,
(b.) make this information available to a National Credit Office, or other such agency administering the CPD when required, and
(c.) agree to try to maintain an 'average' profit on turnover, with the assistance of the CPD in place, at an amount he deems appropriate for the type of business he is in.
He knows, or should, that if ALL his product would just sell, the amount he has to make in profit to enable him to feel it's worthwhile still being in business.
With the CPD in place, the amount of volume EVERY participating business should do will increase, if there is any REAL demand from Consumers for the products being offered. Whether there is, or not, is up to Consumers. If there is not, then those products will not be made in future, for there is no sense in producing articles no one actually wants.
Through the CPD, product for which there may well be a very REAL demand, which could already be made in greater quantities, but cannot currently ALL sell (without further recourse to debt) for lack of EFFECTIVE demand is thereby enabled to be sold. Without that further recourse to debt.
There is NO NEED to raise prices to 'profiteer' with the CPD in place, since the increase in sales volume enables a greater profit. The same as it does now. You're spreading your 'costs' ~ your 'overheads' ~ many of which are relatively fixed in every business, over a greater volume of sales. Increasing your profit. Without raising your prices.
In my opinion, with the CPD in place, the greater inducement to profit for some large businesses might well be to try to lower prices further. To try to 'predatory price' smaller, lower volume competitors completely out of business.
Which, again in my own opinion, is one of the reasons why we would want to covenant with the merchant that he will try to maintain an 'average' profit on turnover.
Our idea is to keep business de-centralized and 'consumer' oriented over time, not to further increase consolidation and inadvertantly enhance some future straight 'financial' orientation to it by increasing market domination.
I doubt very much there would have to be much 'policing' done to ensure the system was functioning properly. If there were, with the provisions above agreed to by participating merchants in place, I don't see where that would pose any particular difficulty. Compliance would be no more difficult to determine than would presently be the case with existing sales taxes, and probably a great deal less so.
Some businesses will have a high volume of sales and can operate with a very small margin on their turnover to cover their costs. Other businesses have a low volume of sales and require a higher margin on turnover to do the same thing. There is NO "restriction" that forces different businesses, with different sales volumes, to sell the same products for the same price. It is up to you, as a Consumer, to decide where you will buy. Same as now.
What the CPD does, through augmenting "effective demand"available to consumers, is to make it possible for sales volumes at ALL participating merchant's store to rise. And with that rise will come an increase in the merchant's rate of profit. It is from that 'profit' that 'loans' are more fully amortized, enabling needed and wanted production that CAN already be made, to continue TO BE MADE. Without the current necessity for ever expanding exponential debt growth, or the inanity of some of the other supposed "cures" of the "magic money for infrastructure" varieties.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
Wally. Four points, I believe:
1. Sorry, yes I spelled Martin's name wrong. A a slip I regret. And,yes, I have found him to be the member of this group most likely to clear up difficult points logically and practically.
2. A National dividend is not only our policy, but is written into our Constitution.
3. I have strongly opposed the universal income idea which is, I accept, socialistic. I have expressed this view strongly internally. It is also unconstitutional in view of 2 above. That is what I was referring to in my message, and I expect it to be sorted out this year. Or "die in the attempt". I am embarassed that it is there.
4. I will accept the discount scheme if someone tells me the significance of a "just price" concept that appears to be simply that, with no practical application. I have spent some time trying to get people to explain this lately, and the best I got was being accused of not pushing forward regardless! In a group where many seem to waffle and very few offer practical means of progress. Would you like to tell me whether we would have an army of bureaucrats enforcing "just prices" for every article, or alternatively, what is to stop the discount scheme simply subsidising rising prices? Nobody else appears to be able to.
Regards.
John R.
From: wmklinck@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:37:33 -0700
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
John,
The Consumer (National) Dividend is central to genuine Social Credit and if you have not "picked up" on it (a rather casual manner of expression, seemingly) you are certainly not "pure Douglas S C" or anywhere near to being so. I think you have already made it clear that you do not accept the Compensated Price and the concept of the Just Price which are pivotal to Social Credit as Douglas presented it. So you are "fairly pure S C"? I would infer that you are not even poorly "pure S C." Seems that some of the problems with "Social Credit" in New Zealand are far from being resolved. A guaranteed basic income is not a Social Credit idea but is manifestly socialist. I observe that your "Democrats" website provides a link to Victor Bridger's Social Credit School of Studies which is a sound site. I am mystified by your reference to "Martin Hatterslee" whose ideas you "rate most highly." Most highly above whose might you tell? In this case you must be familiar with his ideas. I have never heard of any Martin Hatterslee. Perhaps you are referring to J. Martin Hattersley. For one who seems ever anxious to upstage or improve upon Douglas, you don't always give the impression of being overly precise.
Wally
On 4-Jan-09, at 11:45 PM, John G Rawson wrote:
For activity in NZ, log onto our website
www.democrats.org.nz Ignore a couple of socialistic items, which are transient. Otherwise, we are fairly pure Douglas S C except that we have never picked up the Dividend angle. Don't forget the "nz" bit on the end, or you might get Obama.
For the rest, of course, 4 years on this group ....
And good luck. Don't get sidetracked onto things that look attractive and won't work.
Are you in contact with Martin Hatterslee, whose ideas I rate most highly?
Regards.
John R.
From:
helgenome@hotmail.comTo:
socialcredit@elistas.com;
socialcredit@fsbdial.co.ukCC:
thtardif@hotmail.com;
thtardif@sympatico.ca;
mail@michaeljournal.org;
versdemain@citenet.net;
alainpilote@hotmail.com;
michaeljournal@gmail.com;
siebenthal@gmail.comDate: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:17:58 -0700
Subject: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
Hi All,
We are in the process of rebuilding the Social Credit Movement here in Alberta and we are looking for simple introductory material on Social Credit for people who have never heard about it before (99.8%), and who are not necessarily particularly interested in economics as a field of study. We would appreciate if any of you could direct us to suitable sources.
Thanking You,
Helge Nome
V.P. Communications,
Alberta Social Credit Party
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