You are still dodging the issue, Joe, again with your main thrust negative. Perhaps someone else will come in with something constructive.
However, I must accept Wally's comment that this group exists to study Douglas ideas, not to promote them.
Somehow, I can't accept that Douglas wanted us to simply make better sense of his statements, just as an intellectual (and as Per has put it, historical) exercise. I do believe he would have liked his proposals to be put into effect. Right?
So, if political action is taboo, what practical steps should be taken to try to do this? What have been tried, and what success have they gained?
They exist, they have been tried in this country with abyssmal failure, but I want to know if anyone can suggest better. But this approach can also be an excuse for sitting on one's backside and giving nothing in the form of time, effort or money for the sake of one's fellow beings.
Regards.
John R.
From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:43:48 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
(John Rawson wrote:-) NO Joe!
Keep the theoretical vagaries for other parts of the discussion.
(Joe replies:-) You can't avoid "theoretical vagaries" in any kind of a discussion involving the questions you're asking.
(John continues:-) What would be your first practical step to attempt to obtain a SC economy?
(Joe replies:-) To forget about trying to get a so-called "Social Credit" Party elected government.. That isn't going to happen. Anywhere. And if it did, given the "talent" available in any of those Parties at present it would be an even bigger disaster than it would've been when that approach was first tried..
(John continues:-) Who would you approach, how would you do it, what would you use to get their attention and try to persuade them you were talking sense?
(Joe replies:-) As I see it, there are probably two possible ways. The first is to do pretty much as I think Bill Ryan might like to do. Thoroughly analyze the "ancient texts", in light of what they might actually mean. Which he, amongst all of us here, certanly seems to have the necessary background in 'accounting', as well as the equally necessary academic 'objectivity' to be able to do. It is not an "easy" task. But it is something that has to be done.
Get the knowledge contained therein into a form in which others in 'academia' can study and test the possibilities in their own minds. These are the people who will have the ear of the elected politician, whatever his Party, when that politician is under a general pressure to "do something", and hasn't the foggiest idea "what". That's one way.
The other way is preferably done in conjunction with the above. And it is here that the existing political Party apparatus might possibly be of some use. Particularly if it has any ability at 'fund-raising'. Transform yourselves into what is essentially a 'lobby group'. Begin to popularise what is wrong with the present system, why it can't seem to deliver results we'd all like to see, and how, in very broad terms it might be made better.
This type of thing was done quite successfully by a rather nebulous 'right-wing' group here called the National Citizen's Coalition, whose efforts in no small way aided the ascention to power of the present 'Conservative' government.
(John continues:-) And if you have tried to do this, what level of success did you get?
(Joe replies:-) I have NOT tried to do this. I do NOT have Bill's background in the detail knowledge of the basics necessary for proper analysis.
Nor have I any background or familiarity with the hallowed halls of "academia". Where people are trained, or at least we suppose that they are, to "think".
All I have tried to do was some of the things I previously mentioned, plus, many years ago, before I knew any better, trying to generate some renewed interest in the BC Social Credit Party. None of those approaches were successful.
(John continues:-) In short, don't criticise unless you can demonstrate a better alternative. Be construcrive.
(Joe replies:-) Is what I've suggested a "better alternative"? How do I know? We're back to "theoretical vagaries". But one thing is certain, what we have been doing is not moving us ahead towards realizing what I believe we'd all basically like to see happen. Other people, of course, will have their own ideas. But if they've already been tried......?
Regards.
Joe
From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:17:07 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
(John Rawson wrote:-) No, Joe. Lets start at the beginning and work through.
I want factual, practical steps, not vague generalities that may or not happen.
(Joe replies:- ) Okay, I'll go back to your questions from the beginning below.
(John continues:-) Particularly not arguments based on things that do not happen. like debt-free money now.
(Joe replies:-) I'm afraid this "does" happen now, John. It's been discussed on here before in an exchange between Vic Bridger and Bill Ryan. And at other times, when the method used was mentioned. Remember that not only "loans create deposits" but also the "purchase of securities" by the Banks.
As I understand it, if I remember correctly, it involves "churning" ~ the creation and sale of securities amongst the banks themselves, on which commissions are paid. These 'commissions' then enter the money supply "debt-free", in a manner of speaking, as the Banks spend what they have "earned".
(John continues:-) And not consumers making decisions on money we haven't even decided how they are going to get it. (I mean how, not in what form or process.)
(Joe replies:-) The "how" is through the National Dividend and Consumer Price Discount. What Consumers decide to do with 'their' money is up to them. So far as the CPD is concerned, nobody "gets" anything until the Consumer decides to buy some product from a merchant who has agreed to participate in the scheme. Then he effectively gets the product at a lower price.
The advantages to any merchant should be obvious. He is enabled to sell 'more' product, provided there is a 'real' demand for that product, and increase his profit from having a greater turnover. (He may, with that larger turnover, be even able to lower his price in competition with other merchants.)
From this increase in sales, there is increased economic activity. Without 'inflation', since "existing" financial costs can then be more fully liquidated without the necessity of introducing more money in respect of things Consumers do not currently buy.
Now back to your questions. You wrote:-
1. Some ruling body has to legislate S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right direction.
Yes, that would seem to me to be a job for a Parliament, Legislature, or Congress.
2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved?
Obviously by having sufficient pressure applied on those who are elected to those bodies to do what is necessary. They "yield to pressure", that is their job. The question here is, I think, from "where" will that "pressure" come.
Obviously if conditions deteriorate as they seem to be doing at present there will be a general pressure applied by the "public" to "do something". To at least restore and maintain the previous status quo for the majority of those affected, or likely to be.
But that's likely as far as it will extend, in my opinion. And 'pressure' to go beyond that is going to have to come from a source which is capable of being more "specific" as to not only greater objectives achievable, but also the techniques by which they might be accomplished. The question for us, I think, is to try to identify just "who" under this latter circumstance are those in office most likely to listen to?
2b. (Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this aim, and how far was progress made?
I think all of us who genuinely care about Social Credit and the potential it holds have done something.
Some, like yourself have tried to win elected office, or assist others to do so.
Some have tried to keep the Social Credit ideas alive, to preserve and publicise the vast volume of material that is in immanent danger of otherwise being lost.
Some have tried to analyze those ideas, to separate the 'wheat from the chaff', and there has been a great deal of 'chaf' to separate, and see if they do indeed hold the promise they've long seemed to, and how, practically, that promise might be achieved.
Some of us have tried to explain the ideas to the public via letters-to-the-editor columns of the newspapers.
Some have tried to expound the realities and possibilities to our elected leaders and representatives, through bombarding the same with letters. Hopefully they've been read and remembered , even if not immediately understood.
Others have tried to attach our ideas to other, more prominent movements. Or better funded ones. Often, unfortunately, losing many of them in the process.
I, myself, have engaged in an experiment on a regional "interactive" electronic News outlet. To see if there was any interest in looking at our ideas as a solution to several problems obviously of great concern to many people here in BC.
I'm sorry to say that there isn't. The "objectives" desired by other participants are too diffused. Perhaps that un-named Alberta SC cabinet minister who reportedly commented that, "... Social Credit is too good for the people, " might not have been entirely wrong!
3. Since we can not know what is practicable until we have "proper national accounts", the first step must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC principles?
Faith in your fellow man, John.
3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees. As are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak constitution have an even worse problem?
Only they can know. I believe the answer here is as I said above.
Regards,
Joe
From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:41:17 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
This is how I see it. Lets start at the bottom.
"5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?"
By enabling each cycle of production to be more fully financially 'self-liquidating' through the distribution to Consumers of the ND and CPD, the exponential growth of otherwise unrepayable debt is halted. As the economy continues to grow naturally over time, with a rise in population, increased manufacturing efficiencies, etc., existing debts are reduced in proportion to it, and can be gradually paid off.
"4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do so?"
Whatever functions as a "National Credit Office" would be a purely 'statistical agency'. It may well be that all, or most, of the relevant data is already collected by existing statistical agencies and the central banks in most countries.
It appears there is already considerable "debt-free" money injected into the economy through the so-called "open market" operations of the central bank and trading in "repos" amongst the private banks.
One would think that there must already be some way of measuring the amount of this activity that needs to be carried on. Perhaps not exactly, but certainly within a safe margin.
If this is indeed the case, there should be nothing to stop what is now injected this way at the "top" of the financial system to "trickle down", from being replaced with similar sized injections as a ND and CPD at the "bottom" of it. Through ongoing direct payments to Consumers, from whom it would "percolate up", increasing the rate of business profit with increased sales, allowing existing loans to be more fully amortized, and needed and wanted production to be maintained.
This is one way in which Social Credit could be introduced gradually with a high degree of safety and certainty that we were indeed on the right course. There are no doubt others, but the ones I've seen, while often seemingly attractive to the initiated, might prove to be far more difficult to "sell" to a sceptical public.
"4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?"
Neither. "Consumers" will decide how this money is to be spent. It is ''their'' money. Such a 'statistical agency', which could be an adjunct to the central bank, (or independent from it), may well decide how much of the overall 'money' might best be directed towards the ND, and how much towards the CPD, based on ongoing observations of just what is happening in the economy.
We would expect appropriate "government" oversight from those we elect.
But just so long as those we elect as government have to get the money they're so anxious to spend "for" us, "from" us, we will have a chance of having a properly functioning democracy. The oft-repeated ususal anti-bank 'monetary quotes' attributed to long-dead notables should be joined by one more:- " Any "government" that's big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take everything you have."
Your other questions, John, I cannot answer. I have seen several proposed 'strategies' offered by several Social Crediters for whom I have the utmost personal respect and admiration. In spite of that, I would be less than honest if I said I feel that ANY of them have a hope in Hell of ever working.
There has got to be an answer, and I firmly believe it will only come in doing something we have not yet tried. We are certainly NOT getting anywhere repeating things we have tried.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
Greetings all. First, let's face it. Douglas got frustrated later in life and became anti-semitic in some of his writings. The fact that about 60% of Britons then would have agreed with him then has been overlooked. It was fashionable. But we now have to live with it. It was an error on my part to mention it in passing.
Helge, what you state is right on the button. Except that, while those who control money can also control the media, we will not get unbiassed media. When SC first went political in NZ we had to get a lawyer member to demand that our main and best newspaper accept a paid advertisement from us! I believe wartime regulations about subversive movements were cited. Our TV are the worst here, regularly running distorted and misleading material regarding monetary affairs. I presently have a formal complaint in with our Complaints Authority on one programme, and although I have given cast-iron proof that the two main points in the programme (one that banks lend money deposited with them) are wrong, it is most unlikely that it will succeed.
Joe, apologies for slightly excessive bluntness, but perhaps it stirred the debate along a bit. But you still appear confused between money issued as a debt that gets cancelled out of existence, leaving the debt, and debt-free money issued so that when the same thing happens to it it leaves no debt behind. Yet you tacitly advocate the latter for a Dividend etc.
I believe our political approach has had its annual hammering, so can we please have a look at the alternative? I'll number some points so that others can quote any where they disagree without repeating the text. 1. Some ruling body has to legislate S C proposals into reality, and,
1a. steer the programme into the right direction.
2. (Step by step, please.) How will this be achieved?
2b. (Optional!) What has the particular correspondent done to try to achieve this aim, and how far was progress made?
3. Since we can not know what is practicable until we have "proper national accounts", the first step must be establishmentof an independent National Credit Authority to prepare one. How can this be made totally independent and still forced to follow SC principles?
3a. In a constitutional monarchy, it could be separated to some extent from political control by coming under the Crown, like the judiciary. But these days Governors General are political appointees. As are Attorneys General. Is there a problem there? Do nations without this freak constitution have an even worse problem?
4. Will the Credit Authority create money, or authorise some other body, treasury ior central bank, to do so?
4a. Will it or government decide how the money is to be spent?
5. How will any nation repay its debt, internal and external?
That's probably plenty for a while.
Regards.
John R.
From: thomsonhiyu@shaw.ca
To: socialcredit@elistas.com
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:03:40 -0800
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
I wouldn't disagree with any of that, Helge. Any discussion of whether Social Credit is "anti-semitic" or not is apt to be rather fruitless, however. Since that catch-phrase, like many others of a similar ilk, is never clearly defined.
It is as nebulous as others that have crept into the lexicon of catch-phrases in recent years. Ones in Canada like "distinct-society", or "aboriginal title", or "sovereingty-association". Or my favourite, since it's so often used in conjunction with the lumber industry here in BC, "value-added". Try and get a concise definition on that one from any of those who are always beating their gums in advocacy of it, and all the wonders it supposedly will bring! And if I were to give one definition, what I believe is the only correct one, how many of those calling for "'value-added" would agree with me.
And so it is with "anti-semitism". It, like those others, means different things to different people, and trying to defend Social Credit itself against such a charge is likely to be an exercise in futility unless those making the charge first define clearly what they take that term to mean.
Interestingly, those who would make such a charge always seem reluctant to do just that. Perhaps they realize that just because one "philosophy" is incompatible with another, this certainly does not mean any hatred need be inherent in either. Of course if the policy of one philosophy embodies "live, and let live", while the other posits, "you'll live just as we tell you to live, or we'll make it impossible for you to live at all", we might have a problem.
Regards,
Joe
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
It is unfortunate that a link appears to have been established, in the popular mind, between Social Credit and anti-semitism. That gives the bankers a tool to divide and conquer the movement, which is what seems to have happened here in Alberta during the days of the provincial Socred government.
The power of the state should be a concern for all citizens, irrespective of the kind of government elected into office.
The best way of keeping a government honest is to have a healthy democracy where citizens take an active part in decision making by their government. And that requires an unbiased press corps and an impartial judicial system.
Money has a strange way of infiltrating all of these in a corrosive way, as evidenced by what is happening around us at this time.
Ideas which may seem to be "heretical" at first glance, in the field of economics, as in other areas of intellectual endeavour, may be deserving of a second look and further consideration before being discarded. (Remember Copernicus, Galileo and the Roman Catholic Church).
I agree with Per that we shall have to adapt to the present time and circumstances without backing away from the belief that the wealth of nations belong to the people who make up those nations, rather than the bankers who are merely the managers of that wealth, not the owners that they pretend to be.
Regards,
Helge Nome
> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:56:02 +0100
> From: almgren_per@telia.com
> To: socialcredit@elistas.com
> Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
>
> Joe Thomson skrev:
> > (John Rawson wrote:-) Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into
> > circulation. And yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along,
> > of course, with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build
> > autobahns etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a
> > chance to link us further with anti-semitism.
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) Linking "us further with anti-semitism" would be the
> > least of my concerns over this method of approach, John. You may not
> > be aware of it, but what you are proposing is the building of a
> > totalitarian "slave state", not a one in which "individual" freedom
> > will be allowed to develop and flourish. That the "slaves" will be
> > well fed and quartered, while they're needed, is of little
> > consequence. They're still "slaves", beholden for their continued
> > sustenance to "servitude" to the "State" and the "system" it imposes
> > on them.
> In my opinion this writing of "slave state" is not what John describes.
> My impression now is that there is to much arguing of what Douglas have
> expressed in a special situation in this list and I think that if Social
> Credit should be of any use in the future, it must be allowed to adjust
> to realities of to-day. If no new thinking is accepted, there is not
> much use to discuss, it would just be a seminar of history, not a forum
> for promoting useful ideas for practical use in the society.
> >
> > This is the very antithesis of "Social Credit". It is "Fascism"
> > without the more odious facets of that failed system fully revealing
> > themselves. Which they soon would, if ever it were imposed. It is
> > interesting that we have been duped into calling this 'anti-semitism'
> > considering where such a policy likely originated.
> This could not be called Fascism in the common meaning of the word.
>
> Per Almgren
> >
> > (John continues:-) And, of course, your argument that new money has to
> > be repaid means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be
> > in the same category, which is ridiculous.
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) It is "repaid", John. It cancels that portion of
> > /existing/ debt charges that could not otherwise be repaid. Without
> > creating ANOTHER debt charge in the process. It is an "accounting
> > adjustment" carried out in the economy as a whole to more fully allow
> > the overall costs of production to be FINANCIALLY, as well as
> > 'physically', self-liquidating with consumption.
> >
> >
> > (John continues:-) An independent Credit Authority would assess how
> > much new money needed to be put into circulation during the ensuing
> > period without causing demand inflation. What that money was to be
> > used for would be a political decision, even if it only considered a
> > divarication between discount funds and those for a dividend. Or
> > reducing taxation.
> >
> > (Joe replies:-) I can generally agree with that provided it be
> > realized this "new money" is applied to reducing prices to Consumers
> > FIRST, not to funding other things which have additional "costs".
> >
> > Regards,
> > Joe
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* John G Rawson <mailto:johngrawson@hotmail.com>
> > *To:* Socred elistas <mailto:socialcredit@elistas.com>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, January 08, 2009 1:07 PM
> > *Subject:* RE: [socialcredit] Looking For Info
> >
> > For the first parts, you have valid points. I have never debated
> > whether or not some form of price control might be necessary. But
> > based on the rather inane information that had previously been
> > circulated, I could not see how this particular mechanism could be
> > practicable. Your new information at least clears part of that
> > objection.
> > Yes, Joe, the money was issued, not lent into circulation. And
> > yes, we did lead the world out of the slump. Along, of course,
> > with Nazi Germany, which used similar methods to build autobahns
> > etc. which unfortunate coincidence gives our opponents a chance to
> > link us further with anti-semitism.
> > And, of course, your argument that new money has to be repaid
> > means that any used for the National Dividend etc. would be in the
> > same category, which is ridiculous. An independent Credit
> > Authority would assess how much new money needed to be put into
> > circulation during the ensuing period without causing demand
> > inflation. What that money was to be used for would be a political
> > decision, even if it only considered a divarication between
> > discount funds and those for a dividend. Or reducing taxation.
> > The Ottawa agreement did nothing to increase trade or spending
> > power. All it did was to close shop against other nations. And
> > one of its minor sidelines was to force us to buy useless strains
> > of forest seed from you rather than the USA. The Douglas fir
> > appeared to have come from somewhere inside the arctic circle,
> > because the lengtrh of day effect made it bud burst far too early
> > in the spring so that it got frost-burned in our much milder
> > climate in the central Nth. Is. Then it hardened off about
> > Christmas and ceased growing through all the warm summer and
> > autumn period. I remember a compartment in Kaingaroa Forest
> > planted with both this strain and a normal one from Washington or
> > wherever. The boundary looked like a sudden cliff face as the
> > canopy dropped from one to the other.The only point I was making
> > over food subsidies was that we had a humanitarian government that
> > helped both public health and a major industry by the use of
> > debt-free credit. Rooseveldt's New Deal did something the same
> > thing on borrowed money. War expenditure finallly brought us right
> > out, and as a point of interest NZ (with strict import controls)
> > came out of the war with zero overseas debt. (And a bureaucracy
> > subsidised less healthy white floured bread, not wholemeal!)
> > But the government didn't "have to" subsidise food. People were
> > starving and it used one method to help them. Coming from a
> > (broke, ex-serviceman's) farm, I never went hungry. But I knew men
> > my age whose developmenmt was stunted for that reason.
> > It seems we may have to revisit times like that before enough
> > people will again consider monetary reform. in any shape, SC or other.
> >
> > John R.
> >
>
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RE: [socialcredit]
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