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Re: [socialcredit] John Her
What is the "debt John Her
Re: [socialcredit] william_
Re: [socialcredit] John Her
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: Two Classes of W. Curti
Re: What is the "d William
Re: Re: in continu William
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: [socialcredit] John Her
Re: [socialcredit] Trevor C
Re: [socialcredit] Joe Thom
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Question for Schro William
RE: OWNERSHIP: Re: Ed Dodso
Argument through William
Re: [socialcredit] Trevor C
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: [socialcredit] Joe Thom
Re: [socialcredit] William
Re: [socialcredit] Timothy
Re: Malthusian Pes W. Curti
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: Argument throu William
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Replying to Jim William
Re: [socialcredit] Timothy
Replying to Tim William
Re: [socialcredit] John Her
Re: [socialcredit] Trevor C
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Re: [socialcredit] Joe Thom
Re: Replying to Ji William
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Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: Replying to Ji William
Re: [socialcredit] John Her
Re: [socialcredit] John Her
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Article from Commo Keith Wi
Relativity, and Mr William
Re: [socialcredit] Joe Thom
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Relativity, and Mr John Her
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Relativity, closin William
Re: [socialcredit] Trevor C
Skepticism and Mr John Her
Re: [socialcredit] Joe Thom
The Sophomoric Mr. William
ANNOUNCEMENT: Doug William
Re: Skepticism and John Her
Re: [socialcredit] Wallace
Re: [socialcredit] Trevor C
RE: [socialcredit] Daniel M
Your offer to send Paul Rie
Re: [socialcredit] wesburt
Re: [socialcredit] Jim
Re: [socialcredit] Javier M
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Subject:Re: [socialcredit] Re: Re: in continuing reply to Trevor
Date:Sunday, March 13, 2005  21:21:28 (+1300)
From:Trevor Crosbie <tamac @.......nz>
In reply to:Message 652 (written by Joe Thomson)

Hi Joe,
Thanks for the response - I think! This week I have limited time available and really need to focus on what you have said before I reply, however, the provision of employment one is simple. The application of technology (especially in manufacturing) has for decades been displacing people from the productive sector. There is a new meat processing plant planned for Hamilton that will replace an existing one employing 400 staff. It will employ 320 and its output will increase by some 20%. One example of many!
Work does not set one free - indeed work is the greatest barrier to individual development and freedom ever invented. In the future I envision an era where the total productive capacity is regulated by the needs of society for the goods and services produced rather than driven by the demands of an economic system that can only continue on the back of ever increasing debt based consumer consumption. The associated costs in terms of resource depletion and the growing numbers of people who simply are unable to service the growing levels of debt will become a burden to large to ignore. The answer is to put 'money' into programmes to re-educate people into the constructive use of increased leisure time, provide support for local/regional leisure/recreational/educational facilities and (on the basis of the output of an efficient productive sector) provide a National Dividend as proposed by Douglas. An adjunct to production based on need would be, I suggest, the need to develop a system of price justification and oversight to ensure there is stability and fairness in the market place.
Essentially the 1st step is backing the current levels of debt out of the economy because that is the key to gaining public confidence and acceptance of the need to change the debt based foundation of the present system. It is a case taking a step back in order to take 10 steps forward.
Regards 
Trevor
Hamilton NZ  
 
  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: [socialcredit] Re: Re: in continuing reply to Trevor

Hi Trevor,
 
I'll respond by interjecting some comments below what you've written.
(Trevor wrote:-)   "It is not logical to have governments hamstrung in carrying out their responsibilities to those who they purport to represent by adhereing to and defending the right of the private owners of the debt mechanism to dictate the terms and conditions on which 'money' is made available for public provision."
 
(Joe replies:-)  I quite agree.  But the methods by which this private 'monopoly of credit' is to be ended, as proposed by the NZ Democrats and other 'Social Credit' political parties elsewhere, (including here in BC, when they still had this issue in mind, and weren't just trying to survive as a viable 'party', as they are at present), is what I would question.
 
(Trevor continues:-)  "There is a vast difference in outcome between issuing new currency (printing money) and making available a measured amount of interest free funding for specific infrastructural assets that will contribute to increased productive capacity and a better lifestyle for everyone."
 
(Joe replies:-)  It seems to me, strictly from what I've observed here and elsewhere, that the ''vast difference'' seems to be largely  made up by the amount of 'inflation'.  True enough there's likely to be a difference between the way a responsible government, such as the NZ Democrats,  would act in this regard when compared with such as Zimbabwe's current regime, say.  But you are still going to get 'inflation'.  Unless you've got some way of controlling consumer prices in mind.  Douglas makes a comment in one of his earlier books about how the construction of a new 'railway bridge' raises 'the price of bacon' in the local butcher shop.  In other places he goes into a great deal more detail about this.  But regardless of whether the money is introduced 'interest-free' or not, when it's done the way you propose (for capital works)  it seems to always raise 'consumer prices'.
 
(Trevor continues:-) "The process of using interest free funding for essential infrastructural assets must initially be targeted at backing debt out the economy and thus creating greater stability in the financial system and a stable foundation for the policy of a philosophy as envisaged by Douglas."
 
(Joe replies:-)  How are you going to "back debt out of the economy" this way if it leads to a rise in 'consumer prices'?  You haven't made any use of new credit to lower prices, (as per the 'compensated price discount' ), nor have you moved to address the problem revealed by A+B.  While admittedly 'saving interest' currently paid to private bankers, is all the money generated by the economic activity related to the new interest-free 'infrastructure' going to be used to repay existing debt?  Or will those receiving it be more likely to then be able to incur new debt?  What do you do when the initial round of creating 'essential' infrastructure is completed?  'Interest-free' or not, won't you find yourselves in a spot where you have to keep repeating the process to continue to provide 'employment'?   Don't get me wrong, I detest the current methods by which governments finance as much as you do.  But those are just some of the questions I'd have about what's proposed. 
 
All the best
 
Joe 
  
 

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